GABRIELA VON SELTMANN AND UWE VON SELTMANN ORAL HISTORY

AGNIESZKA ILWICKA: I'm here in Krakow with Gabi and Uwe Seltmann -- von Seltmann -- and we're going to record this interview as part of the Wexler Oral History Project. Gabi and Uwe, do I have your permission to record this interview?

GABRIELA VON SELTMANN: Yes.

AI: Thank you very much. And I would like to ask you, if you could tell me briefly, how did you meet? Maybe Gabi will set the story?

GVS: This time it was ten years ago, exactly ten years ago. I was thinking it was accidental, by chance. Of course, now I know that it's not true. It meant to happen, but it should happen -- lot of time that I can understand it. And I met 1:00Uwe in the coffee house, Singer, named Singer in Krakow, in Jewish quarter, Kazimierz. It was just the end of Jewish Culture Festival, one of the biggest in diaspora. Amazing festival of Jewish culture here in Krakow. And I went to some restaurant, to -- with my friend, which came from Berlin. We were sitting there and talking, and we had some great time. And at the table close to us, there was sitting a man, and observing us. Very soon, we started talk. And continue, how was the talk? (laughter)

UWE VON SELTMANN: No, I was on the way. It was in June, July 2006. I was on the way from Ukraine back to Germany. Had a few hours' time in Krakow, and always when I came to Krakow, I had to go to Kazimierz, to Café Singer. I met some friends. They went home, and I had just, in my glass, piwo, beer, for a maximum 2:00five minutes. And I said to my friends, I just go inside to sit at my beloved table, favorite table. And, no -- as Gabi said, I was observing -- I don't remember. I remember that I was invited to the table close to me, no, very soon. And so, I was asked where I come from, and -- what I do, and so on. I said, "I'm writer, German." And so, About what you write? And then, I told them about my -- that my father was born in Krakow, 1943, and that I wrote a book about my grandfather. And then, I was sitting in the trap and had to continue, and I had to tell them that my Austrian grandfather was an SS man. And then was silence at 3:00the table. And then, one lady said, "Oh, my grandfather was killed at Auschwitz." And then, was again silence. And I thought, Now, maybe it's better to go now. But we stayed, and one year later, already, in July 2007, we married.

AI: Okay, but who made the contact first after?

GVS: (laughs) I was the one. I sent Uwe -- email with the photos I made the same night. We have photos from our meeting day. And I was very interested in this guy, which -- the first time I've met a German, which came and said, "Listen, my grandfather was a killer during Second World War. He was an SS Man." And me, with all these taboo subjects in my family, with grandfather killed at Auschwitz 4:00and so on, I was very interested in this: someone who is really so honest and speaking such open way, this journalist, writer. So, I wanted very much to read his book. So, I wrote an email to him. Of course, it was some kind of excuse, because also, I liked this man very much. So, I wrote, "Please send me this book. Maybe somehow we can translate this to me," because I didn't know German at this time.

UVS: And I answered then, "Should I send it, should I send the book by post, or should I come personally and bring it to you?" And then, she -- the answer was, "Oh, if you have time." And thanks God, about two weeks later, I had my holidays, and actually I wanted to go straight from Leipzig, where I lived in that time, to Istria -- there's a strait in the south, in Croatia -- to visit 5:00friends. But then, I said to myself, Okay, if I take the straight way or I go to Krakow. No one actually is waiting for me, so if I come one or two days later, no problem. So, I went first to Krakow with the book in my car. And, well, then it happened.

AI: And then it happened, and then you became the most famous Jewish-German couple, because of the book project.

GVS: Yes. We started to make research about our families. Uwe already knew a lot about his grandfather. I needed his support and help to know more things about my Polish grandfather, which was killed at Auschwitz. And many other stories came out, and actually, when we've met already, we had this research, and the subject was the identity. And as artists, we were trying to deal with the 6:00subject -- this part of Europe from which we come, this identity subject is very important. From the other side, there is many hidden subjects and informations, and mixture of families and traveling people and war. Some expelled, some coming to the new places, some living some other place, changing names and so -- family names. It's quite complicated area and place. Timothy Snyder wrote amazing book about Ukraine, and he called this place --

UVS: And Poland.

GVS: And Poland, and he called this area "Bloodlands." So, this is, unfortunately, very good description. So, when so many things happened, also, it has big impact on your family. And when you start -- ask questions and you are already third or fourth generation, sometimes you have no one to ask anymore. 7:00But this question is coming, especially when you are from this artistic direction, and you want to know who you are or --

AI: But to you came not only questions but also answers, and suddenly, especially, in your life, Gabi, Yiddish became very important thing.

GVS: Yes, but I must say it was a great influence of Uwe. And his story is really amazing, and somehow it took me, in a very easy way -- I started to follow him. And actually, to see how open he is for his history, it give me the strength, the power to face also my story and my family and my nations and my -- I mean, the Galicia identity also. So, our meeting ten years ago changed our life, and my life, definitely, in the amazing way.

UVS: Oh, very soon, we decided to move together to Krakow and to Kazimierz. This was for me -- I came for the first time to Krakow in 1989, fall in love to the city, and I always was thinking, by myself, Oh, it would be great one day to live in Kazimierz, but there was never the --

GVS: The right time.

UVS: The time, the right time. Never the occasion, never -- and then, suddenly, everything happened, like it was some kind of sacred, secret wish. But for me, very soon, it was clear. I did this research on my grandfather, wrote a book about it. So, why not to do it, also, on Gabi's grandfather? Because very often, the perpetrators, you find a lot of records, documents. The archives are still 9:00full, even if the Germans destroyed so many documents, but they are still such an amount. But to find out anything about Gabi's grandfather, who was killed at Auschwitz, it was really, really not easy, and we had to dig deep and to travel to a lot of places in whole Europe to find any kind of information.

GVS: Very often, when you are from such a family with such a past, you don't have power to ask these questions anymore, and there is always one or two persons in family which start to dig and ask questions. And the first one in my family was my brother. He gave us a lot of documents he collected.

UVS: But he was never talking about it.

GVS: Yes, right. Yes.

UVS: Never talking about it.

GVS: Because we don't wanted to -- hear it as a family, to face this subject.

AI: Oh, because if you speak loud, then suddenly this thing became real.

GVS: Yes. So, in the moment when Uwe came and he started to ask, really, the open questions as (UNCLEAR) connected him and (UNCLEAR) when he trusted him, he bring all informations, and then we continue to ask the -- to search for documents. And so, we could find lot of informations, but thanks to this, we could find lot of informations about Uwe's family, what was amazing and surprising a lot, especially this -- all Jewish roots here.

AI: Okay, but that's your book, and we know already about your book. But then suddenly you started do together totally crazy thing, which is a Polish-German movie in Yiddish, "A Real Mentsh from Lemberg," and my question is, how did you manage the work together?

GVS: Oh, it was great. We were a great combination. And Uwe's journalist and writer, someone who is -- enough passion to make research, and me from the -- 11:00being from the film milieu, we could combine our skills, so --

AI: Because you're -- artist, right?

GVS: Yes, yes, so --

AI: You're the makeup lady.

GVS: -- yes, I'm special effects art. I'm make-up artist. And also, for many years, costume director. So, I knew this -- people with whom to talk, how to find a cameraman and what staff to use and so on. So, we could find my friends, actually, which join us with this great enthusiasm to follow the story. And together, we could -- also with donators and with great support, especially from Germany, to make this documentary. We created some production film in Germany, together with our friends from Germany, so -- which supported us with -- in financial ways. So, we could really do very fast some project, which is incredible, because this is the first Polish-German coproduction in Yiddish 12:00language after the war. So, for eighty years, there was nothing like this.

AI: And I know that for you to make a movie about Boris Dorfman was very important thing. But now, you are working together, again together, on Mordechai Gebirtig.

GVS: Yes, on Mordkhe Gebirtig.

AI: (laughter) Who came up with this idea?

UVS: Actually, also, my idea was always to make a trilogy of Yiddish films, three films with the Yiddish language or some topic or theme. And we started already the research to make "Yiddish in Tel Aviv." But then, we failed, also, because of the war in 2014. And then, I -- suddenly came to my head, Why not to do something Yiddish in Krakow? We live in the neighborhood of Mordkhe Gebirtig --

AI: Who was -- you have to say that for the people who will not know.

GVS: Mordkhe Gebirtig, born 1877 in Kazimierz, killed by Germans in 1942. He was a Yiddish -- actually, he was a shtoler [Yiddish: carpenter] -- Tischler [German: carpenter]. And in the night, he was working on Yiddish poems and songs, and they call him the very father of the Yiddish folk song, "Es brent, briderlakh, es brent" oder "Blayb gezunt mir, kroke," "Kinderyorn," "Hulyet, hulyet, kinderlekh" un a sakh mer ["It's burning, brothers, it's burning" or "Stay healthy for me, Krakow," "Childhood," "Play, play, little children" and many more]. And yes, I don't remember when I read the first poem of Gebirtig, but I think it was more than twenty years ago. And I always wanted -- and I like 14:00his songs, his poems. They are songs going so deeply inside, and on the other side so full of warmth and full of optimism. And "Der zinger fun noyt [The singer of hardship]." Es iz geven, zaynen geven -- there were a lot of poor people around him, and he was writing for them and about them. And so, to somehow bring back a little bit, Gebirtig, to the public awareness, this is one of my dreams, because his poems are really absolutely amazing and great.

GVS: So, a part of identity, our main subject we work about, is memory. This is -- connected Gebirtig with the story, why we remember about some heroes from the past, why we remember some names, and why some names disappear completely, 15:00because of the coincidence of the situation of the time of history, of political situation, and so on. And the next person we work about and I make a project now about is a great poet, writer Zuzanna Ginczanka. Her original name was Ginzburg. She was Russian Jewish, which came -- escape from revolution with her parents to the area of Ròwne, which is Ukraine now. At this time, it was Poland. And she choose the Polish language to learn in school. And she started in the very young age to write poems in Polish language. Very interesting point of view of woman in this time. And unfortunately, she was killed at the very end of war in Krakow by Germans. She was tortured and killed in 1944. And something happened bad that 16:00memory about her completely disappeared. However, she was, as a young lady, already very well-known in this milieu of poets and poetry in Poland. And now is the moment when, again, came this wave of informations about her, and people start to talk about her. And I make a project, which is based on her poetry. It's a musical, I would say. The music theater or something like that, theater play.

AI: And tell me, do your projects have any website or any way to connect with the obvious support? Like, if anyone would like to support your projects, how they can participate in this?

UVS: We have some websites with a teaser and information about our Gebirtig film. Then, I have my own website under my name, and on Facebook you find "Boris 17:00Dorfman: A Mentsh." And so, people can contact us and find us in internet.

AI: And what is the address of the website?

UVS: No to jest pytanie teraz [Polish: And that's a question for now]. (laughter)

AI: Okay, we will add it to this --

UVS: Mine is vu-vu-vu --

GVS: W-W-W--

UVS: W-W-- Uwe minus Von minus Seltmann.de. There you find information. On Facebook, "Boris Dorfman: A Mentsh." And --

GVS: And Zuzanna Ginczanka, Żar Ptak, this is the Facebook website, also. The very new project of us. The very last one.

UVS: And about Gebirtig, it's -- hopefully it will come soon, the website. We have one up: Stowarzyszenie Film Kraków [Polish: Kraków Film Association], I think.

GVS: Stowarzyszenie Film Kraków, there you will find also informations about Gebirtig, yes.

AI: And I know that soon you are going to United States for the first time to give a lecture, right?

UVS: Yeah, we were traveling all over Eastern Europe until the deepest -- most far away areas in Ukraine or Romania, but we have never been in the States before, so we are very honored and excited to be invited to -- for lectures to Boston and --

GVS: When -- say when.

UVS: -- it's for Yom Kippur, it's a Yom Kippur lecture in Boston, so, in -- yeah --

GVS: -- 2016.

UVS: -- 2016, 11-12 October, 2016, in the synagogue in Boston, and --

GVS: We are also ready to come with another -- lectures, and to show --

UVS: With our film.

GVS: -- with our film, to make screenings. So, whenever someone is interested, you can contact us and we will come.

AI: And then to see with you --

GVS: Yes.

AI: -- a beautiful movie of "Boris Dorfman: A Real Mentsh from Lemberg," the last Yiddish speaker (UNCLEAR).

GVS: Of course, with English subtitles. We have this documentary, so we can show it and we are very happy, we will be very happy to come to America. (laughs)

AI: And to the world.

GVS: And to the world. And we would like to say this sentence which we say always as the end of our lectures and our discussions about peace and about identity and so on. Make --

UVS & GVS: -- love not war. (laughter)

AI: A sheynem dank [Thank you very much] to both of you! (laughter)

UVS: Nishto far vos [You're welcome].

AI: -- on behalf of the Wexler's Oral History Project, and see you on the other side of the ocean in America in September.

UVS: Nu, mir kumen kayn amerike [Well, we're going to America].

GVS: A sheynem dank. (laughter)

AI: Thank you.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

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