ELAINE KATZ ORAL HISTORY

EMMA MORGENSTERN: All right, this is Emma Morgenstern and today is November 29th, 2010. I am here at the Yiddish Book Center in Amherst, Massachusetts, with Elaine Katz and we are going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Elaine, do I have your permission to record this interview?

ELAINE KATZ: Yes, you do.

EM:All right, great, so let's get started. So, can you tell me briefly about where your family comes from?

EK:Well, my family -- I was born in Hartford, Connecticut. And I grew up in Hartford. My father was a secularist who, when he married, informed his family 1:00that they were going to keep a secular home, but that they would have glass dishes so that the family could participate with them. The family never came. But they tried. And my dad was a -- he had been the yeshive-bokher [yeshiva student] and he had a great deal of background and knowledge and did very much make sure that my brother and I knew our Yiddish history.

EM:And where did your mother and father come from? Were they from Hartford, as well?

EK:Well, they came -- no, they both came from Europe. They were -- but they met in Hartford. And they were part of a group, a whole group of friends that all felt the same way that they did. And they spoke Yiddish and they were very much involved with secular Jewish culture.

EM:In what ways were they -- did they become involved in secular Jewish culture?

EK:Well, they had, as I said, a group that they were participant with. In the beginning, when they were younger, they -- when I was still a young child -- I don't really know, I can't follow it, but when they got older and they moved to Florida, they were involved, also, with a group and they used to have a Saturday morning or Sunday morning, I guess, radio program. And they used to invite any 4:00of the secular writers that were coming to Florida to join them on the program. And they recorded the program and, in fact, after my parents died, I gave those tapes to YIVO, so YIVO now has them, the various programs that they had.

EM:And what kinds of things were they covering in those programs? What kinds of topics?

EK:Well, they covered what was happening in the world around us. They covered, depending on the guests, maybe some singing or some stories or -- it depended on 5:00who was there and what -- how they would participate.

EM:And what did your parents do for a living when you were growing up?

EK:My dad was a builder and he built homes, and when the war broke out and he couldn't build anymore, they did have a bookstore and -- framed pictures and 6:00they -- that's how they managed during the war.

EM:And what did your mother do?

EK:Well, my mother never really worked, per se. But my mother had grown up in Egypt. And she had been a student in the Egyptian branch of a French Jewish school, l'Alliance Israélite, which I understand is still in existence. And she graduated from there and then she was working as a -- assistant buyer in -- 7:00French department store. And then, when the family in the United States sent tickets to them for her and her mother to come to the United States, the tickets were for nine months in advance. And so, mom started putting away layaways and clothing and she managed to save the -- pretty much a whole wardrobe. And the 8:00story that's told in the family, and I don't know how much -- true it is, but they say it is -- is that when they were coming in and her cousins and her aunts didn't want to be embarrassed by the immigrant, the greener, and so they came to the boat with clothes over their arms for her to change into. But here came this Paris-dressed lady down the gangplank and (laughs) they were very embarrassed. Didn't know how to get rid of the clothes that they had with them.

EM:So, was your mother's family Sephardic or --

EK:No, my mother was not. My parents were both from Jewish tradition. They're not -- they were both from -- my mother was from, well, somewhere in -- I can't -- I don't know. Whatever. You will have to cut this out, (laughs) right?

EM:And how did your parents settle in Hartford? Was there a big Jewish community there, and --

EK:Yes, there was a large-size Jewish community there. Oh, and my mother's 10:00family were from that area and mom worked in the area. And then, my dad and also his family were -- lived in the area, but his family were not -- were very religious and -- but he was part of a group of young secularists that believed in the future. And they had a very big group. I remember growing up with many, 11:00many, many families that were part of the organization that they were all involved with.

EM:And did your father ever tell you why he broke from his religious family and became secular?

EK:No, not really. In fact, he did make sure that he filled us in on history. He made sure that we understood. There were no shules [secular Yiddish schools], unfortunately. We did not have a secular shule in Hartford at the time. But he tried to make sure that we at least knew the background of where we had come 12:00from and where we were going. They spoke Yiddish in the home, but they also spoke English. And I guess the Yiddish that I learned was -- we didn't really use Yiddish, but I did absorb a lot.

EM:And what was Hartford like for you when you were growing up? Can you describe it?

EK:Well, I really thought that I was the only secular young person in Hartford. 13:00As far as I was concerned, everyone that I knew that -- the community kids that lived around me, that went to school with me were all quite religious and -- or at least nominally so. And I was about, I guess, fifteen or sixteen years old when I got an invitation in the mail from a couple, young couple, that were 14:00trying to organize a secular Jewish organization. And I was thoroughly amazed. I never thought that such people existed and that there were people that agreed with me, with the way I had been brought up (laughs) in Hartford. And it was a very exciting moment for me.

EM:And did you get involved in that organization?

EK:Yes, I did. And about -- I guess shortly after I began getting involved in this group, it was suggested by some of the people in the group that I might 15:00want to work for a secular Jewish camp. And I never heard of such a thing. And I did apply for a job and got a job at a camp that was called Wo-Chi-Ca, which was Workers' Children's Camp. And it was run by the Jewish People's Fraternal Order. And I had a very exciting time. Was three summers I worked there and I thoroughly enjoyed it.

EM:And so, can you tell me anything more about the summers? What would you do there?

EK:Well, I was a counselor, first with younger children and then with older 16:00children. But it was a very heady experience for me, because the camp itself was very exciting to me because we had guests like "Mother" Bloor and -- I never heard of these people before and I was very excited to meet them and to be part of that. It was a very good experience for me.

EM:And how do you think that experience changed your outlook on the world or your own life?

EK:Well, it certainly broadened my basis of understanding. As I say, when I grew 17:00up in Hartford, I didn't know that there were any such things as secular Jews. (laughs) And so, it was a whole broadening experience.

EM:So, you've talked a lot about how it felt like you were the only secular Jew in Hartford. So, what was it like growing up with feeling like you had that singular experience?

EK:I just sort of accepted it. I don't think I thought of it as unusual, because I didn't really think that there was any other possible thing, so. But 18:00certainly, once I got involved in this group and I began working with them, it was much more exciting for me. And then, I went away to school.

EM:Sure. Can you tell me about why you chose to go away to school and where you went?

EK:I went to Ohio State University. And people said to me, "Well, how come you went so far?" And I went as far as my parents would let me go. (laughs)

EM:And what did you study there?

EK:I studied social work. Group work.

EM:So, why did you want to get away?

EK:I guess it's part of the same thing that we were talking about before, that 19:00-- and I had suddenly discovered that there was another whole world. And I wanted to be where, maybe, I could involve myself in that world.

EM:And do you feel like your experience in college lived up to that expectation?

EK:Yeah, to a degree.

EM:And how? How did it?

EK:Well, I guess it wasn't really that much of a difference from what I'd grown 20:00up with. But I was on my own and I was involved and I did belong to Hillel and I was doing things that I found exciting. And that was it.

EM:And what was the Jewish community like at Ohio State?

EK:Very small and very secular. Very -- no, not secular. Very traditional. And I 21:00lived in a Jewish house, but that's the way the university organized things and that's the way it happened, but -- and that's the way it was.

EM:And what drove you to study social work? Why did that interest you?

EK:I like working with kids and I like doing things with children. And certainly, once I got -- started working at Wo-Chi-Ca, that encouraged me to 22:00want to do it more. And what I found at Ohio State was some -- interesting experiences. After my first year, summer at Wo-Chi-Ca, I came back to school and I was taking a course in camping. And the term paper for the course was to be a discussion of a camp that I knew existed or a camp that I would like to see 23:00ideally exist. And if I chose a camp that I would like to see ideally exist, it should -- I had to give references. And if I was describing a camp that I knew, then I didn't have to have references, obviously. So, I wrote my camp. I had just come back from camp, so I wrote about Wo-Chi-Ca and handed in the paper. And about three, four days after I handed in the paper, the professor said to 24:00me, "Where are your references?" I says, "What references? You said if we were describing a camp we knew, we didn't have to have references." He says, "You mean to tell me this camp exists?" I said, "Yeah, I just worked there last summer." Well, to make a long story short, I ended up working the next two years at Wo-Chi-Ca and getting credit for school and had a grand time. (laughs) And the professor didn't think that such a camp ever existed.

EM:That's a great story. (laughs) And what kinds of people did you meet at Camp Wo-Chi-Ca?

EK:I met young people that were alive and alert and aware of what was happening in the world and trying to do something to make the world a better place. And it was a whole -- a very exciting experience for me.

EM:And you haven't explicitly mentioned this yet, but I know that your family was involved in a lot of political action. So, can you tell me a little bit about how politics played a role in your upbringing?

EK:Well, I did mention it and I told you that my parents were part of a secular 26:00group. And their group was involved in trying to bring about a better world. And this is what their activity was.

EM:And how did they pass that on to you?

EK:Well, I guess you just -- (laughs) you absorbed it by osmosis. This was what you did. And when I had my own family and I became involved and I began working 27:00with a shule and running a shule for eleven years by myself and -- that was just the thing you did. I mean, I just assumed that's what everybody did, (laughs) because my parents did it, because that's just the way I saw -- and I did.

EM:All right, well, I'm going to ask you about the shule in just a little bit. I want to first ask what you did after college. Where did you go?

EK:After college? I got married and I came to New York. And we -- oh, I guess 28:00about three, four years -- three, four months after I was married and living in New York -- and I said to Lyber, I said, "Well," I said, "I'm going down to see the people from Workmen's Circle -- from" -- I'm sorry, the people from Wo-Chi-Ca who were still -- and discovered that -- the same time that we got 29:00married -- in fact, the same night that we got married was the opening convention of a group called Jewish Young Fraternalists, which was a group run -- organized by the JPFO, the Jewish People's Fraternal Order for secular Jewish young people. And they did everything they could to make sure that that group was going to be successful, including at least partially paying an advisor to 30:00work with us so that there was support for the activities. And when I went down to see them, they said to me, Well, you know there's a group in Brighton -- you live in Brighton Beach and there's a group there that we understand is a -- having problems. They need some help in the way they're functioning, and maybe you could look it up and see if you could help them. So, we did. We looked them up and discovered where they were and went down to the meeting. And by the end 31:00of that first meeting, I think I was the treasurer and Lyber was the president or whatever, I don't know. We got involved. And we were involved with that. And in the process, we met some of the closest friends that we ever had for many, many, many, many years that were involved in supervising and working with the groups. And the next three, four years we were involved with JYF were some of the most exciting years of our lives. We had musical groups, we had the 32:00choruses. We had fifty -- no, we had a hundred-people chorus in the Bronx and there was one in Brooklyn and we had drama groups and we had dance groups and we had, oh, all kinds of activities. And it was just so exciting, what was going on.

EM:What was one of the best activities you ever did? Or what's one of your best memories of that group?

EK:Well, I sang with the chorus and I enjoyed that very much and it was a very exciting experience for us.

EM:What was the chorus about?

EK:Well, it was Jewish folk songs and work songs and songs of the -- all the 33:00various progressive movements and it was just a very exciting experience. Bob Decormier was our leader. He wasn't Jewish, but he was a stickler for doing things authentically and correctly and he -- if we did something, it had to be true to the Yiddish language and the Yiddish tradition. One time, we were singing -- invited to sing at a concert. And one of the songs that we were going 34:00to sing was "Ne-Ne-Ne, No-No-No," I don't know if you know the song. It was a song from the Jewish movement in Europe. And we really wanted to introduce the song ourselves but were told no, that there had to be -- that there was a master of ceremonies who's going introduce all the songs. And I remember Bob standing with this young man who was a college student and trying to get him the 35:00background of this song so he could introduce it. And it had to start with the word -- with the title and the title was "Neyn, neyn, s'vet undzer folk nisht untergeyn," "No, No, Our People Will Not Dissolve." And Bob said, "Neyn, neyn, s'vet --" and this young man said, "No, 'Neyn, neyn, savet --'" And Bob said, "No, no, no, no, no, no, no. S'vet." And he says, "Neyn, neyn, savet undz--" And 36:00no matter how he tried, couldn't get him to pronounce it -- and finally, Bob just, in desperation, says, "No, no," (wipes forehead), "Svet, svet, svet! S'vet undzer folk nit --" And (laughs) if this stands out in my memory -- (laughs) it had to be right. The Yiddish had to be right.

EM:And did you appreciate that? (laughs)

EK:Very much.

EM:That's a good story. And so, music is important to you in your life?

EK:Yeah.

EM:Can you tell me about that?

EK:Well, it's just part of my life. There's nothing extra-special. It's something -- it's important. And my kids grew up and they were singing and my 37:00kids are involved in the chorus in Boston now and my grandchildren are involved in the chorus in Boston. So, (laughs) it's just part of our living.

EM:And can you tell me about some of your favorite Yiddish music?

EK:Well, the music that I enjoy the most was the music of struggle and the music of the working class and of the struggle for the working -- again, in keeping 38:00with what I'd been brought up with.

EM:All right, well can you tell me about how you met your husband?

EK:Oh, dear. That's an interesting story. (laughs) I was at Ohio State and my husband was a soldier stationed at Ohio State at the time, waiting for what he 39:00would do. Was sort of a cadre. I had had problems as a child. I had rheumatic fever and I -- and spent most of my childhood either resting or being careful about my health. And used to have to come home and rest after school. I had to 40:00rest on Saturday mornings. The only time I really got a chance to be with kids my own age was Saturday afternoon. But Saturday afternoon, everybody went to the movies. So, okay, I went to the movies with them, but I didn't really learn how to communicate with them to be with -- because we were in the movies. We weren't doing things. And when I got to college, my roommates tried to get -- make some dates for me and somehow it never worked out. I would freeze up when I'd go out on a date. And it never worked out. And finally, my roommate threw her hands up 41:00and said, "The only way you're going to get a date and keep it is if you make it yourself." Well, one -- it was a long weekend. I don't remember which holiday it was, but most of the whole house -- the local kids had gone home for the weekend and I was alone in the house and got sort of bored and I wandered over to Hillel. Wandered through all the rooms in Hillel and there was nobody there. And I was about ready to go back home when I heard from the music room -- record 42:00playing. And it was the songs of the Jewish -- of the partisans from -- Soviet Union. And I was surprised, 'cause I hadn't ever heard anybody else play those but me. And I went to the door of the music room and looked in and there were three soldiers in the room. And I knew there was nobody else in the building. And my knees were shaking and I said to myself, Look, if you don't get a date out of this, there's definitely something wrong with you. So, I went into the 43:00room and I sat down next to the guy that was playing the records. I figured I could at least talk about the record. And we got -- I said, "I was surprised to hear you playing a record." He said he was surprised to find them there. And back and forth. And we introduced ourselves to -- and then, he said, "Well," he says, "my father used to go to Hartford quite frequently," 'cause I had told him 44:00I was from Hartford, Connecticut. And I said, "Really? What brought him to Hartford?" He said, "Well, he was a Jewish writer and lecturer." Now, when Moishe came to Hartford to speak, he used to stay at my house, 'cause my mother and his grandfather were involved in the same Jewish theater group in Egypt before she came to the United States. So, she knew him, so -- now all of this goes through my mind when he says he's a Jewish writer and lecturer. And I had 45:00grown up with one of his cousins. And the only thing that came to my mind at that moment was Carmy, his cousin. And so, he said to me, "He's a Jewish writer and lecturer." And the next words out of my mouth were, "How's Carmy?" Which, of course, thoroughly floored him. (laughs) He didn't know how to answer me. And apparently, he later contacted his aunt and said, "Who is this lady (laughs) that says she knows me, knows the family?" And, of course, she immediately had us married. And then -- immediately. So, for a long, (laughs) long time. Well, 46:00three weeks after I met him -- we did spend the three weeks -- we did a lot of dating. But then, it was -- came vacation week and I went home for vacation. And the arrangement was that he would meet me when we got back. And when I came back, he wasn't there. He said he would meet me at the station and I got off the train and he wasn't there. And I went back to the house and he wasn't there. And very disappointed. And then, I got a telegram. He had been shipped out. He had 47:00been sent somewhere else and he couldn't be there. But he had sent me a telegram. So, we wrote on and off for two, three years. I never really knew him that much. I mean, it was three weeks I knew him. When he came home from the army, he wanted to get in touch with me. And he wasn't -- not about to call his aunt to find out where I lived. So, he went to New York Public Library, where they have a complete list of -- well, telephone books from all over and found the Hartford telephone book and called my house. And I was at school. And that's 48:00how we got in touch again. And that's how I met him.

EM:And so, you were married -- you moved to New York and were married after college --

EK:Right.

EM:-- is that -- okay. And what was New York like at that point?

EK:It was very exciting. JYF was in full bloom and we were involved in all kinds of political activity and all kinds of activity and it was just very, very exciting. Very full life.

EM:What years was this? When did you move there?

EK:Forty-seven to about '55, something like that.

EM:And so, what was going on politically that you were involved in at that time?

EK:Oh, I remember going to May Day, May Day marches, fighting for freedom for -- was a very heady time. And we were -- Lyber and I were the oldest -- we were 50:00sort of the one married couple in a group of young people. So, we were involved with a group in organizing [UNCLEAR]. It was just a very heady experience.

EM:And how did you get involved in the shule?

EK:Well, once my kids got to be of shule age, I called Itche Goldberg at the -- 51:00and said, "Where am I going to -- my kid's going to shule" -- and turned out that the shule nearest us was the Isaac Raboy shule and it was fairly close. And, course, they were always delighted to have new recruits and people that were willing to take over the responsibilities. And for many years -- it depended on whether or not -- how many students we had, whether we had one teacher or two teachers or whether we -- if I had only nine kids that year, I 52:00couldn't afford to have more than one teacher. And if I luckily had a bigger group that year, then we'd have two teachers. And we tried very hard to make it clear to the teachers that we wanted our kids to feel comfortable in Yiddish. We didn't want them to feel that every time they opened their mouths, somebody would be sticking their throat down it because they made a grammatical mistake. And we said, We don't want you to correct them. We want them to feel comfortable 53:00speaking Yiddish. And if they make a mistake, they make a mistake. So what? The important thing is that they feel comfortable trying to speak the language. And one year, we had two teachers. We had a young teacher and an older teacher. We had a meeting of the farvaltern [administration] before the year -- shule season started and we tried to make this point clearly to the teachers, this is what we wanted. And the meeting was over and I was in the kitchen preparing some coffee 54:00and all of a sudden, the young teacher came into the kitchen and she was in tears. She was absolutely crying hysterically. I said, "What's the matter?" It seemed like after the meeting was over, the teacher had turned to her and said, "Let them talk what they want to talk. We'll do what we have to do and we have to correct the children if they make mistakes." And this young teacher was hysterical because she realized that everything that we were trying to do was completely ignored. And she was in hysterics. And I was in hysterics, 'cause I was really very upset by it. And I knew what the problem really was because, 55:00yes, Itche was concerned with making sure that we had a teacher in our shule as -- but he also had -- concern with the teachers and he wanted them to have a living and he wanted them to live. And so, he couldn't -- even though he understood what we wanted, couldn't give in to us. And, well, that sort of was 56:00the last straw for me and came the spring, I decided I've had it. I've done this for many years and I'm going to close the shule, I'm going to send my child to -- take my child a little further up away from home but take him to another shule. And I've had it. Yeah, I just can't do it anymore. I inform the administration about that and Itche didn't say a word. And came August and I get a call from him, "Can I have one more meeting? Just one more meeting. One more meeting of the shule." Reluctantly, I said, "Okay," and I called the meeting. 57:00And Itche came into the room and he didn't look at anybody else, didn't look at any of the other parents that were there. He looked at me and he said, "If I give you Harris as a teacher, will you open the shule?" Now, Harris was a young teacher, trained by the Board of Ed. And (laughs) how could I say no? (laughs) So, we did one more year, but that was it. After that -- and Michael graduated and he went to mitlshul [high school] and I was through with the shule after eleven years. Enough was enough.

EM:So, was the shule a day school or was it just an afterschool kind of program?

EK:No, it was only on -- once a week. We met on Saturdays. Saturday, Sunday, I don't remember. But we -- once a week.

EM:And why was it so important to you to have your children learn Yiddish?

EK:It wasn't really Yiddish, per se. It was the whole -- shule was history, culture, language. It was a whole, total experience. That's what was important 59:00for me, that they know who they were, where they came from, what the culture was. Yes, the language. And, of course, the language -- don't forget, my father-in-law was a Yiddish writer. My mother-in-law wrote Yiddish poems for children. Yiddish was their life. It was important for me, in addition to -- but more important -- but it was the total experience of being who we were and where we came from and where we were going. And that's the important thing, was --

EM:And did you have Jewish friends that it wasn't important to?

EK:Yes. And I had one very close friend that was -- had been on a train from 60:00Berlin to Amsterdam, out of Berlin. And she had been, in effect, away from her family for many years in this community. And to her, the reason that she had 61:00been sent was because she was Jewish. And therefore, to her, Jewishness meant religion 'cause she had lived with a rabbi in Amsterdam. And so, to her, it was important to be religious and for her children to go to regular shule and to Hebrew school. And we were close friends and the kids were close and we grew up -- and my kids went to shule and her kids went to Hebrew school. And one year, 62:00one time after they'd been in school for quite a while, she said to me, "My kids have learned to recite a portion of the Talmud, but your kids have learned who they are and where they come from. And your kids have much more than my kids ever got." And that -- I knew how much this meant to her. And it meant a lot to 63:00me to hear her ever say this to me.

EM:That's very interesting. And were there any challenges in bringing your children up in this kind of tradition?

EK:No, because it's -- they went to Kinderland, they went to camp, they went to shule, they -- and when it came time for them to go to camp, I started trying to find out where they were going to go to camp. And my background was in social 64:00work, in group work. So, I went to apply to work at Kinderland and I had my interviews with Kinderland and then I applied to work in several of the other schools, the private schools of a secular background. And they offered me much more money and better terms. But I wanted my kids to be in Kinderland. So, 65:00that's where we went. And instead of getting paid enough to have money left over at the end of the summer, I ended up paying extra money (laughs) because Kinderland didn't have the money to give me. But that's where I wanted my kids to be and that's where they were and I was a group leader for seven years.

EM:And how did you like doing that?

EK:I loved it.

EM:Can you tell me some stories from that? (laughs)

EK:It was a very wonderful, heady experience for me. It was -- I thoroughly enjoyed working in that setting. I thoroughly enjoyed working with the people 66:00involved. I thoroughly enjoyed continuing because at this time, I was still working with the shules during the summers -- during the winter, so it was sort of a continuation of my whole life. Was very exciting.

EM:And how did Kinderland compare to Wo-Chi-Ca?

EK:Well, Kinderland and Wo-Chi-Ca were two parts of a whole. Wo-Chi-Ca was a 67:00workers' children's camp. It was the English back -- but it basically was fighting for the secular approach to life. And Kinderland was the Jewish camp. So, Wo-Chi-Ca was the English camp, Kinderland was a Jewish camp, but basically it was the same camp.

EM:And did your kids enjoy going to Kinderland?

EK:Kids, they sure did. And they're still doing it. Pauline's still working in Kinderland. (laughs) And her father and mother.

EM:And how does that make you feel, to have them continuing that tradition there?

EK:It's great. It's our life. This is -- you asked me several times why did I do this or how did I -- because it's just part of living, it's -- this is the way we live. This is the way we are.

EM:That's great. (laughs) And I know you've mentioned your in-laws a couple of 69:00times, so can you tell me what it's like having Moishe and -- is it Esther -- was your --

EK:Esther, yeah.

EM:-- mother-in-law -- can you tell me a little bit about them and what it was like being their daughter-in-law?

EK:They were just wonderful, wonderful, wonderful, people. Warm, accepting, loving. Wonderful people. And yes, they were involved in activity. But I guess my involvement with them was more personal, was -- it was just marvelous.

EM:Do they live near you in New York?

EK:They lived in -- yeah, they live fairly close and there's -- if I asked, if I needed someone to babysit or something and I didn't find out first whether they were free or not, I made a mistake because they would drop whatever else they had planned to do what I wanted. So, it was -- they were marvelous. They were just marvelous. Warm, just lovely.

EM:And switching topics a little bit, Pauline had mentioned to me that you've 71:00met Jewish people around the world. So, I'm wondering if you could tell me a little bit about where you've traveled?

EK:Oh, my, (laughs) we've been just about -- we've done a lot of traveling. A lot of it was in relation to Lyber's work and we would take our vacation before or after what he had to do for work so that we were able to -- and some of it was in relation to my work. When I went on a sabbatical from the Board of Ed, I got a travel sabbatical. And at the time -- and I was almost -- I had two or 72:00three years left before I had -- was going to retire. And the thought of taking a sabbatical and going back to school was not -- I was not in the mood for that anymore. And I said, "Well, if I can get a travel sabbatical, I'm going." So, I applied and everybody said to me, No, you're never going to get it. The Board of Ed isn't giving travel sabbaticals anymore. Well, I was an attendance teacher with the Board of Ed, and I don't know if you know what attendance teacher is, but it's -- was a new name for an old job. But when they changed the job to make 73:00it a professional job with professional requirements, they changed the title. And the old title was truant officer, okay? But when they put in education and social work courses as part of the requirements, it became a professional job. So, when I applied for the job -- for the sabbatical, I think I had about -- yeah, I had to write it up and I think I had maybe two paragraphs. And basically, what I said was that my function as an attendance teacher is to help children adjust to New York City schools and to help New York teachers 74:00understand where they come from and what their background was and help the teachers help the kids. And that's why I wanted a sabbatical, a travel sabbatical. And I got it. So, that year, we went to China. We took a trip -- a boat around the top of South America. We had to travel in the city -- in the country, at least two hundred miles away from New York. So, we went through New 75:00England and whatever. We did a lot of traveling in the United States. We went to Europe for a month and took a train pass where we could go anywhere we wanted. And basically, we went down to the train station and wherever the train went, that's where we went. And we went for four days and then we went elsewhere. We traveled all over Europe and we had a ball. And then, we've been in -- (laughs) 76:00when we decided to go to the South Pacific, we went -- we said, well, to go that far for two weeks is crazy. So, we spent a month in New Zealand, traveled all -- and drove all around New Zealand. Then, we spent -- we flew to Australia and spent a month in Australia. And then, we stopped in Tahiti on the way back. (laughs) So, that was the South Pacific. We were in Southern Africa, we were in 77:00Tunisia, and -- we've done a lot of traveling. (laughs)

EM:Sounds like. (laugher) And did you meet Jewish people when you were doing all this traveling?

EK:Yeah, well, we looked up -- we made sure that we went to Holocaust museums and Jewish museums and -- wherever we were.

EM:And what was that like?

EK:It was very exciting. We've been at some very interesting Holocaust museums, some of them very unusual and not at all what you'd think they would be. And they were very, very -- some of the nicest -- some were in the United States, 78:00but many were in Europe and elsewhere. Yeah, we've done quite a bit.

EM:Can you give me an example of one of those unusual museums that you went to or sites, Jewish sites?

EK:Well, one of the museums we went to had a -- and climb down a hole into -- ground and went and saw where the family spent the time in the underground. And 79:00then, we -- some very, very unusual -- some were very upbeat. Some were -- most were fairly downbeat, as you'd expect. But occasionally, you come where -- across one where the importance was stressed of what was going to be in the 80:00future and not the past, and became much more upbeat sort of thing --

EM:And you participate in a schmooze group now, right?

EK:Yes. I had been -- when Pauline was born or being born, her mother informed me and her mother that she was going to try and talk to Pauline in Yiddish and wanted us to please do the same. So, we became involved with a schmooze group 81:00run by Beyle Gottesman, who was a Yiddish poet and -- poetess. And we have a meeting in her home -- and basically just talking for two hours every week.

EM:And what kinds of people participate in that?

EK:It's a group of about eight or ten people. We met regularly and it was very exciting. And, of course, I mean, the main requirement was that we speak Yiddish.

EM:Has your Yiddish improved?

EK:Oh, unbelievably.

EM: All right, well we're almost at the end of the interview. So, I'm wondering if you have any advice that you might give to future generations of Jews, Yiddishists, anyone? Any kinds of advice?

EK:Advice. The advice that I would give to young people is to live for the 83:00future, to live for -- as I've said several times today -- you asked me why I did something or how I did some-- it's just because that's the way it is, it came. It's part of living. And this is the important thing, that you live for the future, you live for your children to see. And at one point, when Mike got 84:00involved with Workmen's Circle and he was asked about things and he said, "Look," he says, "I just saw things." And he says, "My mother always did things, my father always did things, that was part of living and that's the way I grew up." And that's what I say, it's -- you don't make an issue over it. You just live.

EM:Right. Well, great, thank you so much.

EK:You're very welcome.

EM:Is there anything else you'd like to add before we stop?

EK:No.

EM:Okay. All right, great. Thank you so much.

[END OF INTERVIEW]