DEBRA WEISS YASHINSKY ORAL HISTORY

MICHAEL YASHINSKY:This is Michael Yashinsky, and today is June 10th, 2016. I'm here at the Yiddish Book Center in Amherst, Massachusetts with Debra Weiss Yashinsky, and we are going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Debra, do I have your permission to record this interview?

DEBRA WEISS YASHINSKY:Yes, you do.

MY:Thank you. So, we'll start off just by establishing that we do have a relationship, the oral historian and the narrator, and that is that I am your youngest son out of your four sons. And when we talked about that that might be 1:00the case, you brought up something funny, I thought: that it reminded you of something in your childhood, where you had to keep a certain formality in a similar instance. Can you talk to me about that?

DWY:Right, I think I know what you're referring to, and that is that my father, Rubin Weiss, a career actor in Detroit -- one of his roles, probably his favorite role, was playing Santa Claus in the annual Hudson Thanksgiving Day Parade. And throngs of people would come and see him on his float and go down Woodward Avenue. And depending on the era -- in the '60s, they would give him peace signs, he would give them back. Or power -- and give them back. And he really loved that role, and not many people knew he was a Jewish Santa Claus. But for that day, he was everybody's Santa Claus. Also during that season, he did a television show where he was Santa and he would greet children. And, of 2:00course, he cast his five children at different times, and I was instructed not to call him daddy but to call him Santa. And I got through it okay. I think one of my cousins, when he was asked and it was live TV, I believe, "What would you like for Christmas?" And he said, "I want a Hanukkah." And my dad improvised and said, "Oh, you'd like cars and trucks?" So -- but I think I'll get through this without making that same flub, so -- looking forward to it.

MY:So, your parents -- you mentioned that your father, Rubin Weiss, was an actor. Your mother also?

DWY:Yes. Believe it or not, they made a career of acting in the Detroit area. 3:00Sometimes, they had to venture to Chicago or New York, but mostly Detroit, because there was a lot of work for actors during that time -- on stage, in film, and commercials. And they were able to raise five children and do a good job of it just by being actors, which is tough to do in any city, but certainly in Detroit. It was a hub of lots of automotive business and ads, and they both made their living as actors.

MY:And what sorts of things did they act in?

DWY:Well, I'll start with my mom, Elizabeth Elkin Weiss. She started acting -- well, early on, but in college, at Wayne State University, Bonstelle Theater. 4:00She was in many, many productions there. And actually, my father, who was, at that time, a director-slash-English high school teacher -- and also a broadcaster and did commercials -- saw her for the first time when she was onstage. And I believe it was sort of a love at first thing. But my mother had ambitions, and she was doing summer stock in New York and had lots of opportunities. She acted with some of the greats. One of the Barrymores, Gypsy Rose Lee, I believe Elaine Stritch. Big, big names, and -- in summer stock, getting great reviews. But love called, and my father, Rubin Weiss, proposed to her and she was on the first train back. Yet she did not have to sacrifice her career as an actress, because she managed to do it all, and raised five kids and 5:00continued acting in the Detroit area. They termed her the woman of a thousand voices, because my father had a more traditional broadcasting voice. Very, very deep, resonant, and people would recognize him when he said, "Could you fill 'er up?" In the old days, somebody would come to your car window and he would say, "Fill 'er up," and they'd say, "I know that voice. Where -- where do I know that from?" Well, because he had -- he was the voice, kind of, of Detroit, where my mother could impersonate, and she was a born mimic. So, she would do commercials if they needed Zsa-Zsa Gabor or Joan Rivers or Irene Ryan from "The Beverly Hillbillies" -- she transformed herself. So, they were equal in talent, but in different ways.

MY:So -- and in all sorts of media in Detroit. So, in radio, they would --

DWY:Yes, they did old time radio. They were really radio pioneers in the Detroit 6:00area. They did "The Lone Ranger," "The Green Hornet," "Challenge of the Yukon."

MY:And those were serials that began in Detroit.

DWY:Correct. And, again, playing different characters all the time. I believe they were given the script that day, and -- and they would embrace a character and go live. And those were exciting times in radio. And they loved it. Once in a while, on Sirius radio, there is an old-time radio channel -- I'll catch one of those episodes and I'll try and discern their voices. But it was an exciting time for them, being pioneers of the industry, and they -- it was a good launching pad for what they were going to do later in life.

MY:So, let's go back a little, just to their parents. And we'll talk more about 7:00your mom and Dad, Elizabeth Elkin Weiss and Rubin Weiss later and your house growing up -- but just to know about your grandparents. Were they mostly from the Old Country?

DWY:Three out of four of my grandparents were from the Old Country, from Russia. Odessa, Bialystok.

MY:Nikolayev.

DWY:Nikolayev is right. And then, one of my grandparents, Benjamin Elkin, my maternal grandfather, was born in Springfield, Mass., not too far from here. And they came here -- well, boy, I'm not sure when, but they --

MY:In the --

DWY:-- came --

MY:In the '10s, I think.

DWY:Right. And all settled in Detroit. I believe Joe -- well, I -- I think they 8:00all came through Ellis Island and settled in Detroit. My grandparents lived -- my Weiss grandparents lived in Detroit for a long time, right by Seven Mile and near Schaefer, which -- beautiful homes. And my grandfather was a bricklayer. And he built many of the homes in Oak Park, which was a growing city for people who were settling there with young families, and he built the house that I grew up in.

MY:This is your grandpa Joe Weiss who was your father Rubin's father.

DWY:Correct, yes. And he was very, very proud of the homes that he built in that area, because it was the age where -- it was, you know, the kind of the land of opportunity, where people were building their first homes. And he was very proud 9:00of that, to be able to give them their first homes. And years later, after they might have lived there ten or fifteen years -- and my father helped him -- they would still call my father on the phone and they would say, "Rube, I've got water in my basement." And, you know, this was maybe fifteen years after they built the house. It had nothing to do with him. But my father would often go over there and offer advice and everything. It was sort of like a shtetl [small town in Eastern Europe with a Jewish community]-type atmosphere in Oak Park, because -- was a largely Jewish population. The houses were close together. The kids were about the same age growing up. And my mother was never a driver. She had some vision issues. She had double vision. Many surgeries as a child. And it didn't hold her many ways, except for driving. So, here she was -- my father was a freelance actor. Sometimes, he'd be home, sometimes he wouldn't. But she was 10:00left with five children, with different activities, and couldn't get them in the car to get them anywhere. So, it was up to her to be creative and to figure out how to get us places. Sometimes neighbors would help. Sometimes my father would be home. And other times, we took taxis, which was sort of unheard of in the suburbs, to see a taxi drive up. But it made us feel very cosmopolitan, like we were Eloise, living at the Plaza. And we had our own cab driver. His name was Al, Oak Park Cab. And he would come and pick us up and take us -- whether it be to the mall or an activity or something else. And we felt like he was our own personal cab driver.

MY:I'd like to hear a little more -- I think there's some interesting stories, probably, associated with your grandparents. And all of them are kind of interesting Jewish types.

DWY:Yes.

MY:Your grandpa, Joe, who -- we'll start with him 'cause you were talking about 11:00him -- was an interesting character, I believe. He was -- he came from Bialystok and he was a socialist, very political and intellectual.

DWY:Yes.

MY:Also, a cellist.

DWY:Yes.

MY:Then, in Detroit, he ended up working as a bricklayer, but continuing to be interested -- and it -- and at one point, he -- is it true that he lived with you in the house?

DWY:He did. But before that, he was a roommate of Will Durant, who was a famous author and -- at that time. But he was a man of strong values. He was a non-believer for formal religion, and yet he was a traditionalist as far as -- we would get together for holidays at their house. His wife, my grandma Polly -- Pearl Weiss was the typical Jewish grandmother. And --

MY:Yes.

DWY:-- and Joe, later on in life, after we lost Polly, came to live in our home. And my brother, Jonathan, the youngest, gave up his bedroom for grandpa Joe and was transferred to another part of the house. And it really became a very sweet time for him, because my grandma, Polly, wore her emotions on her sleeve. She was really a born actress, although never onstage, and she was always in Yiddish and in English just flittering about, making sure everybody was fed and happy and everything else. And Joe was more quiet, and certainly approachable and warm. But when he came into our house, which was very freylekh [cheerful], he became involved in all the activities: us going to prom, graduation, friends coming in and out. And I remember one time, I decided to take him to a movie. And he was hard of hearing, so I decided a perfect movie would be Mel Brooks' 13:00"Silent Movie," because it was all subtitles and he wouldn't need to hear anything. But being the Jewish mother that I am -- felt protective of him during the previews. I thought he might be confused because there were no subtitles and I told him there would be. So, I had to whisper to him loudly, "Grandpa, this isn't the movie, don't worry." And he looked at me and he says, "I'm not blind in the eyes!" So, that was him. He didn't mince words and he was very warm and funny, and we got to know him more -- of his personality once he lived with us, and was a very, very sweet time. And we also saw the value of embracing the elderly people in your family and not farming them off somewhere -- rather to bring them into your home and take care of them, like we did until he passed away. And what I said before, what -- he wasn't very traditional. He passed away 14:00in August, which was a couple months before my wedding, and he had promised me that he would say the Hamotzi [Hebrew: blessing over bread] at the wedding. And this was something for him, to say a formal prayer in Hebrew. But he promised me that he would and I believe I have it on tape somewhere, that he said he would do that and dance with me at the wedding. So, he was there in spirit. But it meant very much to me that he would go and say this formal prayer at our wedding.

MY:Was there also -- Yiddish was his native language --

DWY:Yes.

MY:-- as it was for his wife, Polly.

DWY:Yes.

MY:Was there a certain rhyme he would say to you kids?

DWY:Sure. He would bounce us on his knee and we would beg him to do it, and he would sing a song. And you'd probably be better at translating it, but it went something like this: "Ot a dish, khap a fish [Here's a dish, catch a fish]," and 15:00sort of repeated that over and over. "Ot a dish, khap a fish," and he'd bounce us and we'd laugh. And I don't think we knew the meaning of it, but he was kind of famous for that. And the Yiddish in their home -- and sometimes they would speak it when they didn't maybe want us to understand. But then again, it just flowed from them, and I began to understand some of it. I'm -- I can't speak it, really, fluently. But I still crave hearing it, because it reminds me of those times. It reminds me of my grandparents. And so, whenever I have the opportunity to meet someone who still speaks that language and has that beautiful accent, I'm instantly attracted to them and I want to be with them and kind of soak up everything that they have, because it's like listening to sweet music. I just love it.

MY:Think -- think --

DWY:And my -- my grandma, Polly, as I said was the typical Jewish grandmother in 16:00the very best way. My mother, as an ode to her, wrote a poem about her called "Ma," which was a tribute to her Jewish grandmotherliness. And at one point, because she loved to feed people, in the poem, my mother said that she envisioned a refrigerator where it could be unzipped and the contents could be instantly displayed, because she spent all of her time going into the fridge and taking things out. It was never enough. And my brothers -- and I believe this story to be true -- slept over there one night for a special treat. And they had eaten, they had played, they had done everything. And then, it was time for bed. So, she said, "Would you like to take a bath?" And they did. They were toddlers, and they were taking a bath together and my grandpa, Joe, was sitting in the bathroom, just watching them, supervising. And my grandma, Polly, came into the 17:00bathroom with a tray of food. And my grandpa Joe said, "What? What are you doing there?" And she's -- "I thought maybe they'd want a bite." In the bathtub, indeed. She was bringing them what she called Jell-O. She put the accent on that because that's how it was, and she brought them, I think, Jell-O and crackers and jam, because she thought maybe they wanted a little nibble while in the bathtub. So -- and to me, it almost makes perfect sense, so I guess that's what I got from her. She was also a seamstress, and that came in handy because they lived in trying times, economically. They raised three wonderful sons: Harold, the eldest, my father, Rubin, and Moish, as we called him, Morris Weiss. And when they were growing up, if they had an occasion where one of them needed a suit, my grandma, Polly, would take the streetcar to Hudson's, downtown Detroit. She would buy a suit that they could ill afford, bring it home, and cut a 18:00pattern from it by hand. Then, she would buy the material and create the suit and return it in its original form back to Hudson's. And sometimes, if they needed a suit and the other one needed a suit, they somehow did, like, a quick change. Like, some of them -- they'd meet in the bathroom at school and somebody would put on the suit and the other one would have it. And I called upon her to create something for a play I was in, in high school. I was in "Pirates of Penzance." I was in the chorus. But we had to dress like maidens, and they said we should wear something like a pinafore. And my grandma knew exactly how to make it, and she made me a beautiful pinafore. I wish I still had it. And when the play was over, I was heartbroken because where in life do you have occasion to wear a pinafore? This was the '60s and the '70s, and they weren't really in style. And so, one day, I fashioned an outfit, wearing the pinafore over it. I 19:00thought I'd make it work. I probably put on matching go-go boots with it. And I went to school, and just so happy that I could wear it and celebrate it again. And don't you know, the first person who saw me was kind of a snide girl, and she said, "Why are you wearing a costume to school?" She kind of burst my bubble. But I was still proud to wear that pinafore that she made me.

MY:You wrote something in your pre-interview form about how your two grandmothers, this grandma Polly, the seamstress from Odessa you've been talking about, whose name, I think, originally was Pol--

DWY:Polya.

MY:Polya Poling, wasn't it?

DWY:Correct, yes.

MY:And your other grandmother, who is your grandma, Rebekah Heyman, Rivka Heyman --

DWY:Yes.

MY:-- later grandma Bibi --

DWY:Right.

MY:-- who is your mother's mother. And you said that they were both traditional 20:00Jewish grandmothers but somehow different from each other. What would you say --

DWY:Yes.

MY:-- made them different?

DWY:My grandma, Bibi, Rebekah Elkin, I would say was more Americanized. She spoke Yiddish, but that wasn't her first language that came to her, and she didn't have an accent. She came here, I believe, earlier, and she didn't have an accent. And she was more of a modern, for that time, grandmother. She was the first Jewish PTA president at one of the elementary schools. And my mother was very proud of that. And she volunteered at Sinai Hospital for many years. And she was just -- had many talents. She was a needlepointer, she could write beautifully. In fact, she wrote me a letter -- letters that are almost archaic 21:00now in term-- with the email and everything else. But she was a letter writer, and she wrote me a letter when I was going through, I guess, awkward teenage years. And the theme of it was just, "Value yourself and you're beautiful, you're inside and out beautiful." And, "To love oneself is not a selfish thought," that's another thing she said to me. And it was a very precious letter to me, and because -- in our home, things did get -- things get lost in what we call the black hole. I gave it to my mother for safekeeping, and then once in a while I would ask her about it and she'd say, "I have it, I have it somewhere." And recently, when we were going through some of my mother's things, we rediscovered that letter and I have it again. And I -- she was very inspiring, because she told the truth. And she did it in a loving way, but she could just 22:00sort of see through layers. She was a very gentle soul. She loved babies, babies loved her. My grandfather, Ben Elkin, was a larger than life personality. He was a buyer for grocery stores, and an artist. A very accomplished artist. And he would make posters and things for the stores, and he also painted and drew on his own. But he was a very strong man. He had very huge hands, and he would take a lighter and put a flame on it to show us it wouldn't even burn his hands. He did things that were sort of supernatural, that we still kind of believe in. But he was a very -- sort of big, gentle giant, and Bibi was sort of the small, petite, charming one, but really, maybe, the -- made things all work for him, because she was very maternal. He lost his mother at an early age. And so, I 23:00think, in a way, she became his mother, wife. And, in fact, when we used to stay at their cottage in Canada over the summers, we'd wait every morning for him to lumber down the stairs, because he would call out, "Mama! Mama!" And that meant he was calling for his wife, Bibi. And we knew that's when the day would begin. Okay.

MY:And one of your grandmothers, I don't remember which one, but this story, I think, is an interesting one about the time that you went to the hair salon with one of them.

DWY:Oh, so that was my grandma, Bibi, my maternal grandmother.

MY:And she was the one, just -- from Nikolayev who came over early.

DWY:Right.

MY:Grandpa Ben, who you were just talking about, was from Springfield.

DWY:Right. So, my grandma, Bibi, like I said, was more modern. My grandma, Polly, never drove. My grandma, Bibi, drove her car. And I had very long hair at 24:00the time. Maybe was eight years old, and didn't want to have my hair cut, but I needed it cut, at least a few inches. And, as usual, my grandma, Bibi, used her charm and finesse to ask me to go with her to her beauty salon and to have them cut my hair. Only because I loved her and trusted her did I go with her. And they cut my hair and I was pleased with it. I was wearing a corduroy royal blue jumper at the time. And, at the end, all the women -- because usually, they were not used to having children there -- they were ooh-ing and aah-ing over me, and "look how beautiful!" And the woman there said, "You may pick out a bow to put in your hair." And they had a whole clipboard of these clip-on hair ribbons. And they -- she actually -- the woman from the salon pulled one out and showed me: it was the exact shade of my jumper. And this made the women ecstatic, and they 25:00were just flipping out. "Look at how perfect it is, can you believe it?" And I -- I had a long face. And my grandma says, "Honey, what's wrong? Tell me." And I said, "I want that one." And sure enough, on this clipboard, they were all plain bows, different colors, except for one. It was bright yellow and it had a bumblebee sitting on it. It was prophetic, as I'll tell you later. But that's the one I wanted. I had my heart set on it. It didn't match, not at all. And so, I whispered to my grandma, "I want the bumblebee." And all the women kind of -- there was a small riot, and they said, "The bumblebee? It doesn't match! It can't -- a bumblebee in her hair?" And my grandma said, very gently but strongly, "She will have the bumblebee." And they put it in my hair, I wore it all the way home. And, in fact, I have a very precious photograph, because this day ran into a very special night. I got to sleep over at their house in Oak Park. And I'm sitting in my pajamas with this big hairdo that looked, at the 26:00time, like Annette Funicello, and -- one of my idols, so I thought I looked like her. But sure enough, even with my pajamas on, I had the bumblebee bow in my hair. And that's a tribute to her, because she wouldn't let me not go without expressing myself, and once I did express myself, she honored that and respected it, even though the women didn't understand it. They are probably still shaking their heads. But, in fact, my name in Hebrew, Dvora, means "bee." And there have been different times in my life where the bee motif has showed up. So, I do think it's something mystical and meant to be. (laughs) Yeah, a bad pun. My son, Michael, wrote an essay once because he was a mascot for a floral shop, and he 27:00was a bee. And he wrote a very inspiring article about it, which turned out to be his essay for his Harvard acceptance. So, it's a -- just a recurring theme in our family that started from that day.

MY:And that day, you probably didn't even know that your name, in fact, means "bee."

DWY:No, I don't think I did.

MY:So, it really was just a wonderful coincidence --

DWY:Yes.

MY:-- sort of.

DWY:I think so.

MY:Wonderful. So, you -- you just said that -- so, you spent the night at your grandmother's house in Oak Park. You also lived in Oak Park, grew up there. But you were born in Detroit. So, let's go back to your childhood, just -- you were born in -- July 1st, 1954, in Detroit. What hospital?

DWY:Henry Ford Hospital.

MY:And the first few years of your life, you lived in Detroit. When did you move 28:00to Oak Park, the suburb, and why did the family move there?

DWY:Okay, we lived in Detroit, on Richton -- was the name of the street, although I don't think anybody on it was rich at the time. It was an up and down house, and I believe below us were grandpa Joe and grandma Polly. And my mom and my dad -- and we lived upstairs. And I lived there with my two older brothers, David and Leon. There were two more yet to come, Mimi and Jonathan, who were born afterwards. But I think by the time I was born, it became very tight quarters. And, indeed, the shift was moving north to these newer suburbs. Was sort of like the American dream, and people were building these homes, somewhat 29:00modest as they were. But they were first homes for these people who were having children, and growing families in the '50s. And so, the name of the building company that my grandpa Joe had was Harding Building Company. And my father, Rubin, and Harold helped him out with it. But he -- grandpa Joe really knew what he was doing. He -- Harold and Rubin were kind of the front guys, and he was the one who contracted all the workers and everything else. And they built our home, it was a beautiful home. And my mother had a vision at the time, because at that time, the hot colors in the '50s were green and blue to decorate their homes. And I remember going down the block to different friends' homes, and I would be amazed because this one's living room was green with blue, the other one's was blue with green, and I didn't understand why the houses looked the same, the way they were decorated, because when you walked into our house, it looked quite 30:00different. Because my mother had a dramatic flair, and she loved drama and she loved color. And she wasn't influenced by what was in vogue or in style or what the neighbors were doing. And so, when you walked in our home, the carpet was red. Like, a deep cherry red, with a brocade. And then, the curtains were red velvet with white shears, and it went on from there. And some people said it almost looked like a Jewish bordello. And I will admit, somewhat (laughs) in shame, that I was a little embarrassed by it, because it didn't look like my friend's homes and it had odd things that were framed. My mother framed everything, whether it just be a sketch from a child or -- she took a quilt that her mother made for her, prior to her wedding. She was up all night making it, grandma Bibi was -- a beautiful quilt. And she preserved it all these years, and 31:00then one time, it got into somebody else's hands and it was almost ruined. And so, my mother painstakingly cut off the good parts of it, had them framed for each of us, in our homes, and I still have that quilt. So, our home became, I would say, a mecca for my parents' friends, who were wonderful people. Kind of larger than life people. Actors and authors and politicians and people -- and my mother would make elaborate dinner parties, where everything would be from scratch. And sometimes, we would beg her and say -- later in life, when she was still entertaining, graciously, "Mom, just order a tray. Make it easy on yourself." And that -- those words were never heard in our home. "Order a tray?" That was just blasphemy. You couldn't do it. One time, she made a very -- well, 32:00many times -- a very elaborate dinner party, so elaborate that she would make lists of things to do: day one, day two, day three, day four. And, indeed, the serving and the order of things. And afterwards, she couldn't walk. And she went to a doctor and they put her in a cast. Afterwards, people would ask her, "Why -- why do you have a cast on?" And she would say, "I had a dinner party." And they say, "And what? You fell? You tripped? You" -- something? And she says, "No, I had a dinner party." And that's, indeed, what happened. She just -- she worked so hard -- and it was her passion to do so. And people still talk about her dinner parties.

MY:Let's just talk about one of those dinner parties. Just -- you don't need to remember a specific one, but I want to know what sort of things she would serve. Describe the scene for me: what it would look like, and were you there? Were you 33:00ever helping out in some way?

DWY:Okay.

MY:'Cause I believe she even had a -- sort of gourmet club, didn't she --

DWY:Right.

MY:-- where she would put on themed dinners and --

DWY:Yes. When you say a club, that implies that other people were doing it, too. She was the whole club. And really, if you got an invitation to their home, it was a very coveted invitation. And people, indeed, told her that they felt intimidated after. "You can't come to my house. I could only boil you a hot dog." But that wasn't what she did it for. She did it for the pure passion and love of food. And this was before the Food Channel or anything like that, where it's become in vogue to be a foodie, which -- I don't think she ever liked that word. She researched it. She has Julia Child's first cookbook. She had -- although she loved cooking traditional Jewish food, she embraced all different kinds of food and loved it. So, for example -- and during one dinner party, the 34:00-- I remember the appetizer was coquilles St. Jacques, which was a seafood appetizer. But it wasn't good enough to just bake it in a casserole. She bought these beautiful shells and then put the mixture on the shell and then had a gratin over that and served it this way. I remember one time -- and it was a very elaborate recipe -- one of the guests came up to her and said, "My husband is allergic to seafood." And grandma thought she should have had that information before, because she really wanted him to try this food and he couldn't. Beef stroganoff was another famous one. And if you see versions of beef stroganoff now, often it's kind of this brown slop on top of noodles. And my other knew that that wasn't correct. She had, indeed, a Russian, authentic cookbook. And the only way you serve authentic stroganoff is over fried 35:00potatoes. But not just fried: they were twice fried. They were frites, and that's what you served the mixture over. And, indeed, it's the best thing you've ever eaten. And --

MY:And, yes, go on.

DWY:No, go ahead, it's good.

MY:Well, what were you going to say?

DWY:Well, during these parties, she had everything organized to the minute. But, indeed, she was a great storyteller, and people didn't want her away from the table. My father was, too, and everyone was interesting. And I really often thought my social life, now -- because she was doing all this while she had kids in the house and everything else. I don't know anyone who does this kind of thing anymore. And I always thought my social life never compared with theirs, because it was like watching a great movie, seeing these people come in and out, and laughing and staying 'til one in the morning and telling wonderful stories. 36:00And, oh, so it was -- sometimes, she would let myself and some of my girlfriends be waitresses. But not just waitresses: she gave us instructions. "Clear the salad plate. Now bring the onion soup," which was perfectly browning in the oven at the same time. Someone once said that these crocks that she had had internal heat in them, because this -- they never seemed to cool off. And she liked nice things, but it wasn't about the things. She wanted things to be authentic. So, when she served onion soup, she would go to this special store in downtown Detroit -- the name escapes me. But she would often go in and see -- was in the Fisher Building in Detroit, and she would see these beautiful crocks, made just for onion soup. And she would say to the woman -- woman would say, "How many do you want of these?" And my mother would say, "How many do you have?" And that 37:00would be the amount. If the woman said two dozen, she had them. But she used them. She used them, just like her cookbooks. Because she had shelves and shelves of cookbooks. And if you pulled any one out randomly, they would be stained or they would have her notes in them that this was wonderful, double this, add more butter to that -- because she interacted with her books. And also, her Yiddish books and her books of the Shoah and everything else that captured her heart. Her home -- well, our home growing up was certainly full of books. But later on, after we lost my dad, she moved to a condo closer to where her adult children are living now, and she filled it with all the things that she loved, that made her happy, because she had lost the love of her life. So, 38:00every wall was covered with art, her art, because she was an artist, her books, her music. And, indeed, it was you, Michael, who commented once that it was so amazing to be in her home and to see all of this passion -- art, everything -- and only imagine that one person ever lived there. It looked like many people lived there, because how could one person have -- not just these things, it was never about things. It was things that she connected with, and she loved them in her home. And she was an amazing woman. She could do anything, and she did it beautifully.

MY:And with what sort of Jewishness did she and your father fill the home with you five kids living in it? What would you say made the household Jewish? And what -- what were the sort of Jewish values that they passed down?

DWY:Well, I would say traditional Jewish values. When I say traditional, I don't mean formal, because my brothers and my sisters, we didn't have bar mitzvahs or bat mitzvahs, and we didn't go to Hebrew school. My parents were kind of forward thinking and they felt like if we achieved well in school and were interested in things that we were passionate about, that that would be enough. And at 3:30, our day could be over and we could pursue other things. They didn't want us going on a Hebrew school bus until six or seven o'clock. So, that was their choice. My mother later said she regretted that. But, indeed, our home was a mecca, really, for Jewish tradition, Jewish music, Jewish food, and Jewish values. And -- and Yiddish was spoken, and there were Jewish books. And we did 40:00get together for holidays, for Passover, for Hanukkah, for everything else. And we were traditional in our background. We respected our ancestors and their history, yet we didn't go -- we didn't belong to a synagogue. But, indeed, when we were invited to all these bar and bat mitzvahs, we got to be able to chant the haftorah sort of from memory. But when I met my husband, he was raised in Orthodox Jewish background. So, it sort of became almost like a conversion case, but not really. Certainly, we were both Jewish, but raised very differently. And I would say we met in the middle. But what was interesting about it was, when we established our home and started having children, it -- Sukkot came about, and I 41:00said to my husband, Gary, "I want to buy a sukkah. I've been researching it -- and Leiters in Brooklyn sells them." And at that time, we can kind of ill afford it. It was a few hundred dollars to have a sukkah shipped to us. But I said, "I think it's important we have a sukkah." And he had always had a sukkah, and so he says, "Well, we'll just go to my mom's she has her sukkah." And I said, "No, I want a sukkah. I want it, because I never had one and I want my children to have one." So, in that way, I think I've embraced all of these traditions, sort of -- not technically all for the first time. I certainly knew about holidays and everything else. But a lot of these things were new to me. And I became -- I really fell in love with them. And so, indeed, our sukkah, which we've had now for probably thirty years -- we put it up every year, and we still put the same things that -- because they were important to our kids. We have four sons we're 42:00blessed with: Gabriel, Joseph, Samuel, and Michael. And at that time, they liked superheroes and Disney characters. And so, in our sukkah, we have Transformers and wrestlers and Sleeping Beauty and Beauty and the Beast and all these characters hanging from our -- along with the flowers and fruits and everything else. So, it -- it was a beautiful tradition that we carried on. But I think my husband loved his traditions, too, and he also inspired a lot of our things that we carry through in our home, by his parents, too.

MY:Sundays in your home growing up, you said, were a time when Jewishness really became a part of the soundscape of the home.

DWY:Yes.

MY:Can you tell me about that?

DWY:Yes. My mother, on Sundays -- my parents, both actors, and Sunday was technically a day off for them and a day off for us from school. So, my mother would often start the day in her kitchen -- was her favorite room -- and we would hear strains of Yiddish music playing. I think there was a show that came on on Sunday mornings in Detroit. It was called "The Yiddish Hour" or "The Jewish Hour," I don't recall. But she also had her own recordings of Jewish music. And she would play them loudly, maybe to wake us up, maybe not, but just really to set the tone for the day, which was joyful. And it always made her joyful, and I find now that those same -- the same music does the same for me. My mother used to say that when things were beautiful to her and calmed her, she said it was like mother's milk. And it was like mother's milk to her, this 44:00Yiddish music. It -- it inspired her, it made her dance and sing. It also made her peaceful. And, indeed, in her later years -- we lost her this past September, sadly. And she was in her home when she passed away. And my children and the other young cousins discovered that when they play Jewish music in her room or in her home, her spirits would lift immediately. And it's like every trouble, pain, or ache just went away, because she heard Moishe Oysher or the Barry Sisters, and the -- the beautiful words. And it had the same effect on her still, at age ninety, that it did then. It's like good medicine. And I find now, in our home, that the same happens to me: that when I put it on, I not only remember her, but it stirs my heart. And it just lifts my spirits. And when my 45:00kids were younger and I would have to carpool them to different places, I would put, in our cassette player at the time, Paul Zim, who had Hebrew and Yiddish tunes for children, and Uncle Moishy and the Mitzvah Men. And these are the kind of things we listened to instead of rap or anything else, which sometimes I guess we did, too. But Jewish music was something very close to our hearts in our family, and that was something that inspired all of us.

MY:You, at the end of your mother's life, in her last years, took very good care of her, were every day in the house, helping her and seeing to her needs and being there for her and -- including with this Jewish music, and playing it for 46:00her, and making her happy by playing it. But I just want to know, there was one song, I think, in the last few months that would -- you would play over and over, and it was something that you both somehow connected to, and --

DWY:"Tum balalaika [Play the balalaika]," that's one.

MY:That, always -- but I think a special one that you discovered later was this Moishe Oysher, singing with the Barry Sisters --

DWY:Oh!

MY:-- "Halevay [If only]."

DWY:Yeah. "Halevay, halevay, I wish I were an apple tree. I wish I were" -- yes.

MY:Somehow, that song, I think --

DWY:Well, it's a very freylekh song.

MY:Yeah.

DWY:And it's just freylekh, it has a lot of energy. And I defy anyone to listen to that song all the way through and not smile and feel energized, and -- and love -- love this music. I think it's just something that's either in your heart 47:00or isn't in your heart. And, in fact, sitting in this beautiful Yiddish Book Center, which I visited for the first time today, my mother, who we've been talking about, visited here years ago, on her own. And she took classes here, and now that I'm here, I feel it's kind of come full circle. And although I don't speak Yiddish fluently, I love the language, I love the culture, and -- I'm very happy to be kind of following in her footsteps somewhat and following in my son's footsteps, because he is a Fellow here this year, which pleased her very much. She was very proud of that.

MY:And not only Yiddish music -- did have this impact on her in her last, you 48:00know, years, few months -- as throughout her life -- but also, Yiddish language. And I think you called her something, that -- somehow you calling her would -- this thing would have a kind of magic effect on her.

DWY:Mamale [Dear mom]?

MY:I think somehow -- you said you started calling her "mame sheyne [beautiful mom]."

DWY:I did call her "mame sheyne," and she started calling me that. And it was kind of in the loneliest part of the night, in the middle of the night, when everyone around us was sleeping. And, indeed, myself and my siblings and our children would take turns sleeping in her home, 'cause we didn't want her to be alone. And so, in the middle of the night, she might call out. And it was sort of the two of us only in the world at that time. And she would whisper to me, "Mame sheyne, mame sheyne," and I would say it back to her. "Mame sheyne." And 49:00it just comforted her, and she was giving comfort to me. It's something she never called me before, by the way. She called me "Debele [little Debra]." She called me "Debele." And more recently, I -- I have the honor and the privilege of being friendly with one of my best friends' mothers. Her name is Rose Winugrun, and she's a survivor and a Yiddishist, and loved talking with my mother in Yiddish. And she visited my home a few weeks ago. And when Debbie, her daughter, my friend -- we were helping her get to the car, and I was taking care of her side of the car, making sure she was in safely. "Get your legs in, I'm going to close the door." And she looked at me and she said something just as my mother would. And she said, "Oy, Debbie, Debbie!" And that's the kind of voice and the intonation and the -- the accent that I crave hearing. It made my whole 50:00day, my whole night, because it filled my heart with that kind of Yiddishkayt, a Yiddish heart, a Jewish heart that only certain people understand and can relate to. I can remember when my son, Michael, was in first grade, at Hillel Day School. That was the year we lost my father, unexpectedly. And I was very broken. And I would come into the school and bring Michael to school, and his teacher at that time was a very religious, spiritual woman who really helped put my family and Michael back together during this loss. And she said to me, at that time, that, "Mikhael has a Jewish heart." And he was all of six years old. And I didn't fully understand it then. But she recognized something in him, and 51:00I'm so proud of that now, because it was -- it came true. But at six years old, she recognized that in you, that you have a Jewish heart. And I hope I have a Jewish heart, I hope my children do, God willing, my grandchildren do, because it's really -- it inspires everything in your life. It's about being a mensch, it's about treating people right, respecting others, and carrying on our traditions. And that's really what our grandparents wanted, whether they be formal, traditional Jews or Orthodox, or not really. It's just the traditions that hold us together and, indeed, the Yiddish language, so --

MY:And your parents actually brought that Jewishness, that Yiddishkayt into their performances, as well. Can you say something about some of their Jewish-themed or even Yiddish performances that they organized or performed in?

DWY:Sure. They were players in a production company called the Reader's Theater at the Detroit Jewish Community Center, where it's kind of a staged reading that -- they would come and bring works by Jewish authors and read them onstage. And --

MY:This was, just to clarify, not just at the Jewish Community Center, but at the Jewish theater that's in -- on the campus of the Jewish Community Center --

DWY:Sure, of course.

MY:-- called the Aaron DeRoy Theatre.

DWY:Right. And it was a wonderful venue, and the -- sometimes things would be in Yiddish, sometimes in English. But they celebrated these Jewish works of Jewish authors in a really wonderful way. It was a great showcase for -- and also for these actors who loved doing it. They also did a few of Neil Simon's plays 53:00together. And my father was in "The Odd Couple" and "The Sunshine Boys," and then they did "Plaza Suite" together, also in the theater there, where they played the couple that were marrying off their daughter. There was a lot of physicality in that play where my father, being the hysterical father of the bride, is running around and jumping on the bed and off and this and that. And we still use words from that play. One of them is where he's running around with this tux, and he tears it. And my mother says to him, "But it's rented!" And he says, "Rented? Everything's rented." And now we say that about things. Somehow, we've taken that as our own.

MY:Is that -- was that the -- that was a production of the Jewish Ensemble Theatre, or --

DWY:That was of -- from the Jewish community theater there. It wasn't the 54:00Reader's Theater. It was -- they had productions that came in and they would do them --

MY:The Jewish Ensemble Theatre, the JET.

DWY:JET, I'm sorry.

MY:Right.

DWY:Yes.

MY:Yeah.

DWY:It was, I think, the JET.

MY:Wasn't community theater. It was a professional theater --

DWY:Of course.

MY:-- called the Jewish Ensemble Theatre --

DWY:Yes.

MY:-- or the JET --

DWY:Right.

MY:-- and that was in the Aaron DeRoy Theatre.

DWY:Right.

MY:Those were, yeah, professional productions.

DWY:Right.

MY:So, they acted in ones and they organized the -- I think the performances of the Reader Theatre --

DWY:Yes.

MY:-- there. And --

DWY:Well, I -- another part of my mom's proud history onstage came about when she was age eighty-eight, and the Detroit Opera House was putting on a production of "Brundibar," which was the opera that was put on in Theresienstadt as a part of propaganda at the time to show people who came through that, 55:00indeed, it wasn't the horrific place that it, indeed, was, that there were -- there's culture and music, and they had children perform this opera called "Brundibar." And my son, Michael, had the occasion to direct eighty young, talented children on the stage of Detroit Opera House. And you cast Elizabeth Elkin Weiss as the Jewish mother who is grieving and talking about her child who was no longer there. And she was able to speak Yiddish on -- onstage again, and have this dream come true of her grandson directing her as her husband did years ago. So, it kind of came full circle. And that was quite an honor and it was quite a thrill for her to be able to do that.

MY:So, that was, yeah, part of a pre-opera play that drew on poetry written in the camps and ghettos and, yeah --

DWY:Right.

MY:-- it was a Yiddish poem she performed.

DWY:Right, and that was the play that -- "Lilies Among the Thorns" -- that you created and, indeed -- and cast her in it. And, indeed, no one knew the relationship between the two of you, because you wanted her to stand on her own talent and not just be there because the relationship -- and indeed, nobody -- nobody knew, and she was able to do that, and it was a point of pride for her and for both of you.

MY:So, yeah, that was interesting. Her last role was in Yiddish, then --

DWY:That's --

MY:-- and on the stage of this Detroit Opera House. And -- and many of her earlier performances, those reader theaters, I think she performed excerpts of Yiddish literature, as well, didn't she?

DWY:Yes, she did, and she also --

MY:And -- as did Rube, with her.

DWY:Yes, and she also was a leader of a Yiddish group for the Institute for 57:00Retired Professionals in Detroit, which is just as it is for seniors who have still very vital interests. And one of the interest groups was a Yiddish class or a Yiddish culture class, Yiddish literature. And she was one of the leaders of that group and loved preparing, every week, different things to discuss or to recite. And, of course, everything was spoken in Yiddish, and she looked forward to that Wednesday afternoon very much, because she was with other people who loved the language and the culture like she did. And she got a lot of joy from that.

MY:It's interesting, she did pass away just this past year. And from those who organized the service, they put together a book of all of her and her mentions 58:00and her husband's mentions in the "Detroit Jewish News" over the years. And it was interesting looking back. They had been talked about -- many articles over the years, about their performances and their Jewish activism and Yiddish activism. But I was surprised to find that even as early back as her twenties in the "Jewish News" then, which might have been the "Detroit Jewish Chronicle" --

DWY:Sure.

MY:-- I don't know -- there were notices -- Elizabeth Elkin organizing a Jewish theater group for youth. Come to this spot to join, to take classes. So, she -- it was -- she was sort of this activist for Jewish theatrical art even very early on, which I hadn't been aware of --

DWY:Right, and I wasn't --

MY:-- before those ads --

DWY:-- aware of it, either, until I --

MY:-- seeing those ads.

DWY:-- saw this. And, indeed, was amazing that even at that age, she was interested in it and had the passion to share it with others. And she was called 59:00upon once, I would say within the last fifteen years, to portray a survivor of the Holocaust during Holocaust Remembrance Day. And it was at one of the local synagogues, and she was given a part to read in an accent, and it -- in Yiddish, also, and she said the words of this survivor. And afterwards, someone -- another survivor came up to her and said, "What camps were you at?" Because she had such an authentic -- not only accent, but from her heart she spoke it, and probably through real tears. And this person who lived through it actually approached her and felt they were landsmen [people originally from the same region] and felt -- and said, "Where were you?" And my mother had to say, "No, I -- I'm an actress and I was portraying this role. But I -- but I feel it, too," 60:00as you do, and -- but the fact that she was able to touch the heart and be so authentic -- another thing that she instilled in us was learning about the Shoah, and she had a very large library -- which, again -- not just for purpose of having it and showing it, but she liked to lend it to students and other people who were interested in it. She had video, film -- many, many books on the subject, because that was something that she obviously felt very strongly about and wanted to preserve the memory of this. And when she was given an honor by the Detroit Jewish community, Detroit Senior Life, she was given an honor called Eight Over Eighty, where they pick eight people who are over eighty years old 61:00and for different accomplishments. And she was honored for that. And instead of standing up there and lauding herself, she switched it up and she started talking about the preservation of Jews and how, after losing six million of us, it's up to us now to continue the traditions, the legacy, and the memories of those that perished. And we have to continue to grow, remember, and honor our traditions. And that was her message, not about her. It was about all of us.

MY:Sort of funny you say, like, the -- I think that -- that it being not all about her manifested itself in a sort of comical way as she was being introduced. And it should just be noted that this honor, which comes out once a year, this eight over eighty, honoring eight great people, elderly people of the Jewish community who have contributed to Jewish life --

DWY:Sure.

MY:-- and also, I think, she was awarded it on -- partly for her work on behalf of the refuseniks during --

DWY:That's right.

MY:-- that crisis.

DWY:Russian Jewry.

MY:But I believe you nominated her for the award, yes?

DWY:I did, and that's often the case, where family members or friends think of someone. I didn't tell her much about it, honestly, and I didn't really know about the application process or how they chose them. But I just wrote honestly about her passions for Yiddish and the culture and music and everything else, and also her volunteerism for Soviet Jewry.

MY:And when she was being introduced on this evening -- or it was actually in the daytime -- what happened?

DWY:The gentleman who was from the organization, Detroit Senior Life, had her bio and was just going through her accomplishments, kind of formal. And she is a member of AFTRA and she did these commercials and she could do this -- and she 63:00kind of just wanted to get on with it and just get to the meat of the matter, which -- it turned out she wanted to give this message to the group about preservation of Jewry and culture and everything. So, she actually cut him off from the introduction. I don't think it -- it's ever happened before or since. And she says, "All right, enough already. Let me tell you about what I'm -- what's important to me." And she thanked him, but then took the mic, and she -- that's how she made her living. My -- my brothers would say that my dad would talk into a sponge-like grey thing and come home driving a Buick. You know, that was sort of their -- what they did. They talked through a mic. And she grabbed the mic, as she did many times before in her life, and went on to give her message. So, she had more of a universal message, I think, in mind that day, rather than having someone go through her resume. But I think she was very thrilled for the honor.

MY:Now, focusing on you -- grew up in Oak Park, went to high school at Oak Park 64:00High. What -- what kind of place was that like? I mean, it was an interesting time, I think, for the country, and maybe particularly for Detroit in terms of racial unrest and Civil Rights Movement. And also, in Detroit, the Motown music starting and that whole scene. What was it like to go to high school in that time?

DWY:Our high school was unique, because there were a lot of talented, bright students there. They almost called it like a college prep school, where the teachers were wonderful. And it was a very enriched school district.

MY:And many Jews, yes?

DWY:Many Jews. I think the percentage of the graduation rate and then going on to college was ninety-something. It's just unprecedented. But it was an 65:00integrated high school, also, because there was a growing African American community there. And so it was a blend of cultures. And the fact that we had -- I think there were many things that bonded us. One was the music, because often times you'd be sitting in class and you'd hear the strains of Motown in the hallways, and it wasn't a -- a record playing, it -- were -- it was students who could literally imitate the Four Tops, the Temptations. They had beautiful harmonies, they -- you know, these were our friends, but they -- they performed in the talent shows and everything, and they were spot-on, and very sweet. We call that my music. When one of the tunes comes on the radio, I'll say, "Wait a minute, this is my music." We claim it as our own, Motown. And -- and, in fact, 66:00my idol growing up was Willie Horton, who was an African American baseball player on the Detroit Tigers during the '60s, number twenty-three. He grew up in Detroit. He's our own -- we claim him in Detroit as our own. In fact, the old Tiger Stadium that used to be -- now it was replaced by Comerica Park -- but where -- it became just this vacant sort of land and they didn't know what to do with, and they've now announced that it's going to be the Willie Horton Stadium in Detroit. And the Police Athletic League -- taken it over and kids are going to be able to play there. But Willie Horton was my idol, and he grew up in Detroit. And, in fact, I think I was the first groupie before there was even such a word, because I found out where he lived. I think my dad had some connection to him, because they did a commercial together. So, I snooped and found his address, and I would drive by his house, once I got his driver's 67:00license. I don't know what I was gonna do when I got there. But he lived on Steel, off of Outer Drive, and I would just look in and see if I could see anything. And one day, I decided to take some grass off his lawn to put in my scrapbook. And some of the neighborhood girls saw me, and I guess I looked a little strange, a girl driving up in her dad's Buick and pulling grass off his lawn. And they said, "What are you doing?" And I said, "I love Willie! I just want some grass off his lawn!" They said, We know Willie. He's our neighbor. We babysit his kids. Come on, come up to the door. And they took me up to the door, and here I was, almost there. And his wife answered the door and they said, She loves Willie! She wants to see Willie. And his wife said, "He's laying down." So, that was as far as I got. I almost got there. But my dad took me to the Auto Show one year, which in Detroit is a very big event at Cobo Hall. And we didn't know, but he was appearing there. And there was a big, long line to have your 68:00picture taken with him. So, I thought this is it. This is our moment, you know? He's going to fall in love with me, because we're gonna meet finally. And I waited in the long line and I was thinking of what I was going to say to him, and I got up there and there he was, larger than life. And he is a strong, large, powerful man. And he grabbed my hand and he said, "Hey, how you doing?" And I said, "Fine." And that was my moment. But I do have the picture of our -- our first and -- our first meeting. And then, there was one time where he was next door to us and -- at a party. And you surprised me with that, but yeah.

MY:He was definitely one of your idols growing up.

DWY:Yes.

MY:Another was Barbra Streisand, I think. When she debuted in "Funny Girl," you were probably a young teen --

DWY:Middle school --

MY:-- middle school --

DWY:-- sure, right.

MY:Can you tell me about that sort of mania that took over you --

DWY:Yes.

MY:-- as she was in that movie? And why?

DWY:Okay, why, that's a good question. I was, as many of us were at that time, obsessed with her because she was a Jewish girl who looked like a Jewish girl. And in this character that she played, Fanny Brice in the movie "Funny Girl," she was up against other, more traditional Jewish -- beautiful girls, but she was -- had this talent that surpassed everyone's. And not traditionally beautiful but, of course, the end of the story is she makes it as a star. And somehow, that inspired all of us. And with her talent and everything, my girlfriend, Barbara and I would go every weekend to see "Funny Girl." We probably saw it twenty-some times at the Northland Theater. And we knew every word, every song. And I would sing, "I'm the Greatest Star" in front of the mirror. Not only that, somehow, I found the same exact dress that she wore in that scene. It was a sailor dress. And I had that dress and wore it to school, 70:00proudly. But I really was sort of taking over her character. And I did think I would be an actress, because that's what my parents did, and a lot of children do want to imitate them. And, indeed, my father, when they were casting different commercials, they would say to him, "Rube, we're gonna have you doing a potato chip commercial. We're gonna have you with an eight-year-old boy." And he'd say, "Yeah, I got an eight-year-old boy." And he would bring one of us in. And so, we would do commercials at that time, when I was young and cute and all that. But I got one big audition once that was sort of unprecedented. It was a made-for-TV movie, was going to be made in Detroit by Alex Karras, who was an ex-Detroit Lion who starred in the show "Webster" with his wife, and she also starred in it. Susan Clark. They were making a movie about Jimmy Butsicaris, a famous Greek bar owner of this famous bar, sports bar in Detroit called 71:00Lindell's. And he adopted -- this Greek guy adopted an African American boy, and that was the -- it was called "Jimmy B. and Andre," and this was to be made in Detroit. There were -- and they needed daughters, Greek daughters for this movie. And I was given a script to prepare, and I had it down and I was ready, and I came into the audition and Susan Clark was there. And I thought it was my big break. And she looked at me and she says, "You know, you're a little young for the role. Don't be offended, it's a good thing." So, she says, "I just want you to improvise. Forget the script." Forget the script? I -- that's what I had. That was my comfort zone. I said, "Well, what do you mean?" I -- I was gonna say the guns and the bar and the bookies, the whole macho deal. I had it ready. She says, "No, no. Look at that spot on the wall. That's your father. And he's a big Greek guy, but he's coming in wearing a cowboy hat. Now go." And I was frozen, and I just said, "Daddy, you look fantastic!" And she said, "Yeah. A little less 72:00Jewish, a little more Greek." So, I think you can guess the end of the story. The movie somehow was made without me. I don't understand it 'til this day. But I'm proud of being a little more Jewish, so --

MY:You ended up taking up a different one of your parents' passions -- not acting -- and chose that to be your career, and that's education, because your father, in his early years, was an English teacher, as you mentioned, in a high school. And your mother was also an educator, really, in -- in a sort of informal way.

DWY:Um-hm.

MY:But can you tell me about what you chose to study and what you pursued as a career?

DWY:Yes, I always wanted to be a teacher, and -- although it was common during those days for women to become teachers, I always wanted to be a teacher, 'cause 73:00I loved my teachers and I loved school. And so, I think I wanted to emulate my favorite teachers. But I also had a passion for children with special needs. I was just attracted to them. I loved the challenge of it, and I loved bringing out their special talents that were unique to them rather than focusing on whatever disability or challenge they had. So, I graduated from University of Michigan with a degree in special education. At that time, they called it "for emotionally impaired" -- and I -- my first job was at Hawthorne Center, it was a psychiatric facility for children. And some of them lived there, some of them just came to school there. And I taught a group of very unusual children, autistic children, and I loved it. I just -- every day was something different and unusual. And they were children who had so many different talents, great memories, or they could memorize things or -- one was an artist, one was a poet. 74:00And I remember during my time there, I did a conference, and people thought I was going to talk about the range of disability in the class and everything else. And instead, I featured their art, their poetry, their songs, and just different things that they did do and celebrated that. And then, when I left the job --

MY:At the end of that conference, wasn't there something funny that happened --

DWY:Oh, yeah.

MY:-- at the end of your speech?

DWY:Right, that was my mother. She came to support me. I'm sure my dad was there, too. But, of course, I wanted them to remain anonymous, because really, you know, I was a professional, and your mom and dad didn't come to professional conferences. So, they sat in the back. But then, at the end, my mother couldn't resist. Again, wanting to grab the microphone. And she said, "Although I've never met you before, I think I know that you're a very, very gifted teacher, and these children are so lucky to have you." And half the room knew who she was, (laughter) so the jig was up. But that was my mom. I'm -- I'm sure I was a 75:00bit embarrassed, but her love spilled over and she couldn't resist. And I understand that now as a parent, that you do things just out of love and it doesn't matter what anybody else thinks. You just express yourself. Now that I've lost both of my parents, I want to remember them in every way that I can. And so, I'm saying kaddish for my mother at our shul. And I said kaddish for my father when he passed away. And you get the notice in the mail that the kaddish -- the date is coming. And one day, I woke up very early to say prayers for him in the morning, on that day, and it was a bad, bad rainstorm, and thunder and lightning. And I ran out and I was wearing only flip-flops, even though it was cold and I didn't bring a coat, I was ill-prepared. And I arrived at the 76:00synagogue soaking wet. And, as they do when they're remembering people on a certain date, they say their names. And they didn't say my father's name. And this was our shul, and I knew they had his name there, so I was confused, I was angry, I was upset. They gave me the honor of dressing the Torah, because that was one of the days they brought out the Torah. And, indeed, I -- I grabbed it in a certain way that wasn't right and I was reprimanded gently by saying, "You don't touch that part of it." And things were just going awry. It seemed very mysterious to me that nothing was working out. And they didn't say his name. And after that, I drove to the cemetery to visit him, and while there, I looked up on my phone and I looked up his date of death and indeed saw that I'd missed it by a day. And so, I felt terrible. And at that time, the tears flowed, just like 77:00the rain coming. And I thought I had blown it, and couldn't I get this right, the one day of the year to honor him respectfully, and here I was on the wrong day. And I'm at the cemetery by myself in the rain. And then it came to me that it was just -- the day just became about the two of us. And it was just me and him. Didn't matter what the calendar said -- that everything that happened that day happened for a reason. And I went out and visited him, and I knew he forgave me. And when I do it for my mother now, I find that whatever's going on during the day, I have that time with her where I can only think about her and there's nothing else in my mind, and it's the one last thing that I can do for her. Of course, we preserve her memory by telling her stories and laughing and -- and crying over her. But this is one time every day when I can just focus on her and 78:00honoring her. And so, I'm grateful for that opportunity.

MY:I don't want to -- didn't want to -- you had a sort of train that you were going -- talking about your career and working in special education. It seemed like you had something more, so I -- I interrupted you there. But did you have another thought you wanted to complete?

DWY:Well, yes. I -- I taught at Hawthorne many years and went back half-time after I had our first child, Gabriel. I didn't think I would go back to work after six months of him being here, but I was offered a job-sharing opportunity, which they have never done before. And so, another teacher who also had a baby, we job-shared and took care of each other's kids on our day off. And that worked 79:00out well for a while. And then, I had another baby a few years later, and I decided to retire temporarily to raise what was four sons that we were blessed to have. And once they were in school full-time, I went back and took a job with Agency for Jewish Education in Detroit, in their Opening the Doors program, which means literally opening the doors to children of all challenges to be able to still participate in Jewish education and to just pave their way so they're still included, whether it be a day school, a pre-school, Hebrew school. And we special educators are there to open the door and to make sure that they can embrace all of the learning and tradition that everyone else can. So, I retired from that a few years ago because I needed a new hip. I was sitting in very little chairs with pre-schoolers, and as children often tell the truth, I couldn't even sit in the chairs anymore without being in great pain. And I would 80:00just lean over a table and -- to try and make eye contact, and they'd say, "Miss Debbie, sit down!" And I'd say, "Yeah, I'm sitting down." And they'd say, "No, you're not." So, I knew at that point I couldn't -- if you can't fool them, you can't fool anyone, so I'm -- I might get back to it one day, but it was -- it's a very joyful time, 'cause I -- it's one of the reasons I love working with children, 'cause they do tell the truth.

MY:And also, of course, a major part of your job was raising four kids and creating, with your husband, a Jewish home. I think there might be something interesting about your wedding, when you started this family, and you married Gary Yashinsky. Was it your mother mostly that was planning it with you?

DWY:Yes.

MY:And was there sort of a lot of negotiation needed because there were sort of 81:00two different streams of Jewishness, as you said --

DWY:Yes.

MY:-- entering into this marriage, how the wedding would be?

DWY:Sure. I believe it started with pre-wedding, because one of the requirements of a young Jewish bride is to visit the mikvah [pool for ritual immersion]. And I had heard of a mikvah, but I had certainly never visited one. I don't think my mother ever did. But it became very clear to me, gently but firmly, that this was an expectation to join my husband's family, that I would go to the mikvah and purify myself before marriage. And I was very nervous, apprehensive. I read about it, but I really didn't know what to expect. So, I brought my mother and my sister with me for moral support and we visited this old building. Now they're very modern, beautiful. I believe they look like spas and they give you a robe and everything else. And this was a bit more rustic, shall we say, but 82:00clean and -- and lovely in its own way, and the tradition behind it. But they had me in this little pool, and it was a woman with a very heavy accent -- was instructing me what to do. And my mother and sister were flanking the pool, and I'm all in my altogether in this pool, and not knowing what to do next. The woman who was in charge started shrieking at me with a very heavy accent that I couldn't understand. And she handed me a cup and was shrieking, (speaks gibberish) and I thought, Oh, okay. And I took a cup of water and I poured it over my head. My hair was gonna frizz, I wasn't happy, but I had to do what she said. She became even more upset and agitated and said (speaks gibberish) and again handed me the cup. And I was just stupefied, and we didn't know what she was talking about until I looked at the corner of this pure, clean mikvah and there was a huge, dead cricket floating in the water. And she was saying to me, 83:00"Get the cricket." She wanted me to get the cricket out -- to get it out so I could indeed immerse myself in the water. So, it broke the tension and we laughed and I did what I was supposed to do. Came out, all was well. But later on, my mother-in-law, Lillian, who's lovely, said to me, "Now, how was it?" And I told her what happened. I said, "I thought it's supposed to be clean and purifying. There was a huge dead cricket in the pool." And she said, "It's a sign of fertility." So, again, everything in our religion and our culture is -- there's a reason, and she gave me that reason and she was right, because we were blessed with four beautiful sons, and I guess there was something in the water. But in terms of the wedding itself, my mother sort of saw the wedding as a little bit of a production, because my parents were show biz. And she started making song sheets of Yiddish and Jewish tunes. Everybody could sing together, 84:00and to make it very freylekh and sort of old-fashioned, and I wasn't sure if that fit into my vision. So, I believe the only time -- and it -- it pains me to say so -- that I ever argued with my mother was during this time, because she sort of had this production value going on, and you know what? She was right, because there is production value in a wedding, and there is an energy you have to keep up. And the old traditions are good, and it is good to sing along. But, you know -- and the other side, there was certainly a more formal list of things that had to be done, such as: witnesses had to be outside of our yikhed [seclusion of the bride and groom after the wedding ceremony, lit. "privacy"] room, and the witnesses had to be shomer shabes [Shabbos observant] and kosher and everything else. And so, there were those traditions that had to be in place, too. And above all of this, what I remember being worried about was my husband, because my husband, brilliant as he is -- and he was a medical student 85:00at that time. He loved to play basketball, pick-up games, in Ann Arbor. And he would often times get injured, not seriously, but he had stitches in his nose and other places, and I didn't want him to be injured for the wedding. So, I took his basketball shoes and I hid them in the trunk of my car. And I thought, For the week before the wedding, he can live without basketball. And he said to me later, "What do you think, I didn't have a spare pair of shoes?" He says, "I was still playing." So --

MY:You mentioned this superstition or this folk belief, I guess, that your mother-in-law, Lillian, who came from Poland, from Brisk, mentioned about the cricket and the fertility. I'm just thinking of other Jewish superstitions or folk beliefs that might be part of the family.

DWY:Sure.

MY:There's something I know that -- something referred to as a gut-oyg [good eye], gut-oyg. Can you explain that concept?

DWY:Right, a gut-oyg, it's like a curse, like a bad omen. And you shouldn't say things that tempt fate. And we learned that from very young, that you don't speak of things like that.

MY:And who would -- who would pass that on? Who would insist upon that?

DWY:Probably my grandma, Polly, and then, for sure, my mother -- that you don't speak of such things. You don't let anyone -- sha [quiet], because that could be a gut-oyg, it could tempt fate. And also, you not only talk about -- don't talk about bad things, but you also don't brag about your good things, because that could be like the evil eye seeing all your goodness and all your riches, your children and your health and all that, and you don't want that toyed with. So, you also shouldn't talk about the good things so much, because that could be a gut-oyg. Also, if you said something unpleasant or something that might happen, 87:00you would spit it out and you'd go (spits) like that. And I know that's sort of an old tradition, too. It came to light a few weeks ago, one of my sons happened to be in the E.R. with a kidney stone. Thank God, nothing serious. But when they came in to take a history and they would say, "Is there any history of cancer" or this or that in the family, I would find myself spitting (spits) after each thing they said, because it shouldn't be. And that's something that I just have in me now, that -- there's also --

MY:Something you've put in us, too.

DWY:Oh.

MY:Anytime we say something that might be a gut-oyg --

DWY:Right.

MY:-- the need to spit it out.

DWY:And say, "God forbid," and --

MY:Ts-ts -- something --

DWY:-- like that.

MY:Yes, you were going to say?

DWY:Well, no, I think that was it, that we just -- you don't -- you don't talk about things, you don't tempt fate. I think in my husband's family there was one, that if one of the kids is laying down on the floor, you don't step over 88:00them, because if you step over them while they're laying on the floor, they don't grow. So, that was something that -- that's from my husband's family, was like that. But there are many things like that, where Jewish people, they want everything to be right by their children. If it's good in your life, you want more for your children. If you speak a little bit of Hebrew, you want your children to speak more Hebrew. If you love Yiddish, you want them to -- everything should be more for the children. So, anything less than that, you would (spits) spit it out.

MY:And it's funny that even in saying gut-oyg, there's a certain gut-oyg to avoid, because gut-oyg literally is good eye.

DWY:Oh!

MY:So, you wouldn't even want to say "eynhore," evil eye.

DWY:Yeah.

MY:You refer to it as the good eye, even more to --

DWY:I see.

MY:-- avoid, you know.

DWY:Right.

MY:It's interesting.

DWY:And loshn-hore [ill-natured gossip] is another thing we talk about in our family. Our Rabbi Paktor, who's very wise, once said in a sermon that if you're saying something to someone else and you have to look behind you to see if anyone is listening, or if you find yourself going like this while you're saying it, don't say it at all, because it's probably loshn-hore, which means loose tongue, is that -- something like that?

MY:Yeah, evil tongue. And that wedding, I just thought it was funny -- interesting -- was some coincidences throughout your life that your parents' wedding, which took place at Workmen's Circle in Detroit --

DWY:Yes.

MY:-- Workmen's Circle Lodge? What -- what was it, or --

DWY:Workmen's Circle -- it was their -- where they had all their activities.

MY:Yeah.

DWY:It was just called Workmen's Circle, I think.

MY:Right, and your wedding -- I think both were on, respectively, the hottest 90:00days of their years, weren't they?

DWY:That's right, and theirs was June 26th, which is coming up, and it's very lovely that my niece, Jenny, and her fiancée, Evan, are getting married on my parents' anniversary, June 26th. On that day, in 1949 -- course, it was summer, but it was very, very, very warm, and no air conditioning. But they promised there would be some sort of cooling effect in the building. And what it was was a bucket of ice by the door with a fan blowing across it. And so, my father wore a white tux -- a white jacket, a dinner jacket, and he had red suspenders under it. And later on, as -- as he became farshvitst [sweaty], he took off the jacket and these red suspenders had bled through onto the white shirt underneath, because it was that warm. Now, our wedding, in 1979, was October 21st. But it was unseasonably warm. And the synagogue, Shaarey Zedek, had turned off their 91:00air conditioning for the year. And so, it was in the eighties, and everybody was just shvitsing [sweating] the whole night. I can remember being under the chupah, and we were just dripping. And in our wedding pictures, I look like a girl who's trying on her wedding gown but has nothing else going on, 'cause all my makeup had come off and my hair frizzed and shrunk three inches. And it was lovely, but it was very, very hot. I do remember one of my mom's friends, Helen Kaventsky, a survivor, ran around the whole night, following me, because she was a very beautiful, earthy, European woman who had perfume -- not cologne in her purse, but perfume. Real perfume. And she would dab it on me anytime she saw me, and that was a very sweet memory for me, because she wanted me to feel good and like a bride, even though I didn't look like one.

MY:And this year, over thirty years later, I guess, your son, Samuel, third son 92:00married his wife, Alyssa, in the same shul.

DWY:Yes, he did. And there were a lot of things bashert [fated] about that, because when I was teaching in this agency for Jewish education, my boss was a woman named Ellen Masloff, and we -- often talk about her children, and she had a daughter the same age as my son, Sam, but their paths had never crossed. They didn't go to school together. And so, when I left my job, we talked about them but couldn't figure out a way to get them together, so we left it. And I said I'm going to get my hip fixed and thank you for the opportunity, but I need to leave the job. And years later, it caught up with me, because our children met through Joey and Jackie, my son and daughter-in-law. And they fell in love, so Ellen and her husband, David, came back into our lives, and she said, "You never got your hip fixed." So, anyway, they -- they married at Shaarey Zedek, which -- 93:00the Masloffs also got married there and so did we. And there was something very beautiful about seeing them come down the same aisle that we did, that my parents did, even some of my grandparents did. And it was lovely.

MY:Not grandparents, surely.

DWY:Well, my grandpa, Ben, was at my wedding.

MY:Oh, right, yes.

DWY:Yeah.

MY:Not at their own weddings, you're saying --

DWY:No, I'm sorry.

MY:-- but at your own wedding.

DWY:Yes, and --

MY:Yes.

DWY:-- and it was quite beautiful to carry on that tradition there. And both of my sons so far had weddings in the shuls, and the party in the shuls, which we thought was important, because there's certainly many other venues where you can have parties these days and weddings, and they're all beautiful and lovely, when another Jewish family begins and grows and adds to our people. But having it in 94:00a shul, I think, is very special, and I feel very blessed that our sons and their brides decided to celebrate that way. (pause)

MY:(whispers) Do you want some water?

DWY:(drinks) I wanted to talk a little bit about day school education, because, from a background where I didn't even go to Hebrew school and wasn't really trained formally in Jewish education, and my husband and I are both products of public school -- that we were raising our four sons in a neighborhood that was young and growing and had beautiful public schools. And so, I sent my first sons all through public school. And then, when it came to my youngest, I somehow felt that we would try something new. And so, we sent Michael to Hillel Day School, 95:00starting in first grade. And, indeed, by the time he was ready for high school, there was a new high school, Frankel Jewish Academy, that had opened. And he went on to high school there, and we even put Sammy, our third son, in that high school. And I'm very grateful that they did. I tell people we got smart in our old age, because before, what was important was that we were part of a neighborhood and our kids could play with friends in the neighborhood and they wouldn't be going to a different school where maybe they wouldn't have as many friends. It's not true. It's really -- the tradeoff is not even -- it's not a tradeoff. It's this -- I feel so strongly that Jewish day school education is a really great gift if you're able to give it to your children, because I think it enriches things. It gives them a strong identity, and I just loved being a part of it myself. Maybe I was kind of living through them, because I volunteered in the school and I was in the school a lot and embraced a lot of the things that 96:00were going on there. So, I'd kind of have to hide in the high school between classes, because I didn't want to be right there with everybody when the kids were with their friends. But I -- I think it's a great opportunity if you can give it to your children, day school education.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

MY:There was another story involving an event at the Jewish community center that -- was a packed event at the Jewish community center, and your mother was there --

DWY:Oh, right.

MY:-- attending.

DWY:Some sort of cultural event, and very popular event, whatever it was. And the seats that were available were becoming scarce, and my mother walked in and, indeed, just needed one seat for herself. And she was scouting, looking for any seat, and came upon a row. [BREAK IN RECORDING] There was a Jewish event of some 97:00kind, a cultural event at the Detroit Jewish Community Center that my mom attended. And -- it was a very popular event, whatever it was: a speaker, performer, and the seats were becoming scarce. And many people were saving seats for friends and relatives, and my mom was by herself, only needed one seat, and she came upon a row where a woman was sitting alone. And my mother said, very graciously, "Are all these seats taken?" And the woman says, "Yes, I'm saving them." And my mom said, "All of them? I just need one." And she said, "No, no, they're not available." So, my mother at that point, instead of starting a fight or an argument in some pedestrian way instead embraced her actress mode and went for the drama. And she said, with all of her emotion and heart, "How can Jews treat Jews" -- and the woman was just confused, and really didn't understand how my mother made it sort of a -- a global social issue. "How can Jews treat each 98:00other like this after the whole world is against them?" And she just went, "Ah, never mind," you know, like that and didn't get it. But that's how my mom looked at things, and she saw the bigger picture. She also saw the humor in it. I think she knew that things were not gonna be understood the way she said it. But she just went for it anyways. She was ahead of her time in many ways. I remember she would take us to the Fisher Building in Detroit, and there was a fancy restaurant there, and the name escapes me. I'm sure we went by a personal cab and went out to lunch there. And there was an African American gentleman who was overworked, clearly, and waiting on our tables and many tables and busing tables. And at the end of the meal, my mother put a twenty dollar bill on the table as his tip, which I'm sure was more than the tab itself. And she wrote on a note, "I hope you own your own restaurant someday. On with civil rights." And 99:00it just struck me as --

MY:On the receipt, you mean?

DWY:On the receipt, yes -- as strange and beautiful and something that no one else in the world would have thought of. Or, if they did think of it, they might not have done it. And -- and that was just her way. She was very forward thinking and not only talked about social issues but made them a part of her life. And she made it clear to others what was important to her, so --

MY:And I --

DWY:-- I was proud of that.

MY:-- I know what you're wearing today. Can you show this --

DWY:Oh!

MY:-- heart necklace --

DWY:Was her --

MY:-- was a way to remember both her and your father. Can you tell us about that?

DWY:Right. This heart, this diamond heart, is really the most precious piece of jewelry that I own, and one of the only good pieces of jewelry that I own, and I wear it every day. I used to visit this piece of jewelry at a local jeweler 100:00because a friend of mine worked there and she would wear it often in the store. And the idea was people would admire it, ask her about it, and buy it. But I never -- it was extravagant, and at that time, raising you guys and keeping you in socks and diapers and whatever else -- were more the priority. And so, I would come visit this necklace and see it on my friend. And then, we lost grandpa Rube, my father, rather suddenly and unexpectedly. And I was really heartbroken, as we all were. And approaching was another milestone event, and that was my son Joey's bar mitzvah. And I really hated the fact that we would be celebrating this momentous occasion without him, and -- but we had to go through it, and it was a joyous occasion. We wanted to celebrate it. So, we took our 101:00four sons to the local tux place and tried to get the boys fitted for tuxes. And I remember jackets flying and mannequins falling down and people running around and trying to get measurements. And it was really quite a -- like a "Three Stooges" episode. And all of a sudden, I just had this clarity of thought and I said to my husband, because we traveled in two cars that day -- I said, "I'm leaving." And he said, "Where -- what do you mean? You're leaving?" And I said, "My dad's gonna buy something for me." And that was inspired by my mom, after my dad passed away, found that he had a safe deposit box in the old bank in Oak Park that had some cash in it, because sometimes the producers or the client would pay my dad in cash for commercials. And he put it in this box, and I think he forgot about it. It wasn't a fortune, but when the bank alerted my mom to 102:00this money, she gave it to the five of us and just divided it evenly. And when I had this bit of cash in my home, it became sacred to me, because I didn't want to buy gasoline or food or anything with it, because it represented my dad and my mom's generosity. So, I put it -- I hid it, 'cause we don't have a safe, in a computer box of a game you guys used to play called "Hell Cab." So, the money was in the "Hell Cab" box in the study. And, indeed, something took over, my dad's spirit. He knew I was struggling, and that scene in the tux store somehow instigated a thought, and I ran home and got the "Hell Cab" box full of cash and I brought it to this fancy jewelry store. And the salesgirl who was my friend said, "Are you coming to visit your necklace again?" And I said, "No, my mom and dad are buying it for me." And I opened this box and here was this old money. Literally old. And I said, "Do you take cash?" And she said, "Sure!" I said, 103:00"This is old cash." And we -- I told her the story and we both cried. And this is what I wore the night of Joey's bar mitzvah, and I've worn it ever since. And it does represent family love and devotion and the devotion of my father, who worked hard to take care of us, and my mother, who was generous enough to share it with us.

MY:And ending with a few Yiddish foods and words that have also been passed down in the family, with all the love and memory: some of them showed up at a birthday party thrown by your grandma, Polly, for you.

DWY:Oh, sure. I must have been maybe eight years old. I'll have to look up the date because I know that year coincided with the premiere of the Walt Disney movie "Babes in Toyland," which I believe starred Annette Funicello -- again, 104:00back to the big hairdo that she inspired with me. But the idea for this party, I would invite my very best friends and my dad would drive us to my grandma Polly's house -- my grandpa, Joe, in Detroit -- where she would make lunch for us as part of the party and then we would go to downtown Detroit to one of the big movie palaces there, at the time. I don't know if it was the Fox or somewhere else -- and my grandpa Ben, by the way, put in some of the sound system at the Fox Theater, which is a beautiful place. Proud of that. And we would see "Babes in Toyland," which was the Disney movie out that year. So, this sounded like a fine birthday party for me. But when we got to my grandma and grandpa's house, my grandma, instead of serving hot dogs and hamburgers or peanut butter and jelly, whatever people served at birthday parties during that time, kid food -- she served a traditional Jewish meal. And in her kitchen, at her kitchen table, with her chipped dishes and old pots, she served knaidlach 105:00[dumpling], soup, matzo ball soup with chicken floating in it, and kugel, and potato -- potato kugel, noodle kugel, knishes, which she was famous for. And I remember feeling just slightly embarrassed, because not only was it -- wasn't it party food, but one of my very best friends was not Jewish, and I thought this would be so foreign to her that she would be traumatized. But indeed, she was a very charming, sweet girl. And when I told her, "Kathy, this is matzo ball soup and it has chicken -- and she says, "I've had that before," which I kind of doubted she did, but she was that gracious and lovely that she was making me feel that she was embraced by the whole scene anyways. My grandma, Polly, was so happy to do this, because this was her joy, having people at her table and eating her food. And this was probably one of the best birthday parties I had. 106:00She was very famous for her knishes. She made potato knishes, but the inside was meat. And I'm not sure what kind of meat it was, if it was chopped up brisket or something, but this recipe was in her head. She -- of course, she didn't get it from any cookbook. And I believe my mother unearthed the recipe years later and replicated them. But she would often bring, basically, a tub of them into our house when she would join us for dinner. And the best part was that after the dinner, the rest of them would be kept in the fridge during the week. And instead of making ourselves a sandwich or anything else, we were able to take these gorgeous round delicacies and we'd eat them straight out of the fridge with ketchup -- I don't know if that's sacrilegious -- and just eat them over the sink with ketchup. So, that was a very sweet memory for all of us. I'll have to try and make those one day.

MY:And there's schmaltz in the pastry, I believe --

DWY:I believe --

MY:-- in the dough.

DWY:Yes, you have to have schmaltz, which is chicken fat, and --

MY:And you are, yourself, regarded like your mother and your grandmother, as a balebatish [respectable] cook.

DWY:I hope so.

MY:What sort of Jewish dishes do you like to make? I -- I have a list.

DWY:Oh, okay.

MY:There's chopped liver, which you, of course, make in your sort of modern evocation of vegetarian chopped liver.

DWY:Right, I've adapted that to a vegetarian one, although when I was growing up, my friend Barbara, her mother, Sophie, a survivor -- her husband, Max -- Sophie would make a delicious chopped liver, which Barbara enjoyed at the time. But Barbara couldn't stand the fact that it was called liver. So, her mother, to soften it for her, only called it "chopped." And she would say, "Barbara, do you want some chopped?" And so, that's what she called it. Barbara's mother, also 108:00Sophie, never used their dishwasher because she was so industrious and such a balebosta [woman of the house] that she couldn't -- she said, "Why should I use the dishwasher when I can wash them better myself?" So, she used her dishwasher to keep potato chips in, because she realized it kept them fresh in there, and she wanted to use the space. She was very industrious that way. And so, when we went to Barbara's house to hang out, we would open the dishwasher and eat chips. I do remember that I was making a chicken soup from scratch once, and it traumatized my son Michael because he wrote on his little diary at the time, "I think my mother has a live chicken in the kitchen," (laughs) because I think you had never seen a pullet, the whole thing with its legs and wings and everything that I was going to clean and put into the soup for the broth. And I think at the time, it was traumatic for you.

MY:What was it that your grandma Polly would call "kotletn [cutlets]?"

DWY:Oh, kotletn, those were like hamburgers on steroids. They were big patties that were mixed up with egg and onions and seasonings, and probably matzo meal to bind it. And then, they'd be browned in a pan, and it was much more than a hamburger. It wasn't a hamburger. It was kotletn, it was -- like a whole meal in itself.

MY:And I believe you said once that your grandma, Bibi, would call a similar dish by another name.

DWY:Hamburg. She called hamburgers "hamburg," but it was the same thing. But again, she was more Americanized. And so, I knew I'd be eating the same thing at different grandmas' houses, but at one house it was "kotletn" and the other house it was a "hamburg." But it was all the same. And, yeah.

MY:And what was it that your father would call a "maykhl [treat]"?

DWY:Oh.

MY:He would prepare something, he would call it a "maykhl."

DWY:That's a very sweet memory. My father loved making breakfasts.

MY:Yeah.

DWY:I wouldn't call him an accomplished cook, but he made a beautiful breakfast. And if he -- he would make French toast for us, and when our kids were little, he would make it for them. He made it especially soggy. He liked to use a lot of eggs. So, that was his style of French toast. But for himself, when he had the opportunity to just make breakfast for himself, he would take a soft-boiled egg. He'd kind of mash it in either one of those egg dishes -- or bowl, and he would put in a boiled potato, a small boiled potato, a little onion, sour cream, some seasoning, probably just salt and pepper -- and maybe that was it. And he would 111:00call it a "maykhl -- makhl" -- say it.

MY:Could be maykhl, or in --

DWY:Right.

MY:-- then some accents, it would be makhl, yeah.

DWY:Right, which means just a very delicious thing. And I would look forward to him making it and seeing him enjoy it.

MY:So, would he say "makhl" or "maykhl" to you?

DWY:"Maykhl," like that, what you said afterwards. And he also loved butter, unsalted butter, and would like to put it on his toast. And later on, when they were talking about cholesterol, because I was a loving daughter, I would just -- 'cause he would take a slab for each bite of toast, and sometimes I would just take a bit of butter and put it on his plate, and then I would take away the butter and he'd say, "Oh, Debele," and he -- I'd make him laugh. And I think I eventually gave him the butter, but --

MY:Latkes were some -- are something you've always prepared every Hanukkah. Can you just describe a day or night spent making latkes in your kitchen?

DWY:Sure. They had to be from scratch, obviously. And before I had a food processor, I would use the hand grater, which, you know, abused your knuckles, but it was part of the tradition. And I would have all the family over, and therefore I would start with several pounds of potatoes. I never understood the recipes that said start with three potatoes, one small onion. For me, it was always mass quantity. And that's something I think my mother taught me, that God forbid you should run out of food. It's better to have too much. So, embracing that and, as my mother showed me by example, I would start with many, many pounds of potatoes and onions and eggs and matzo meal. And I would have a big oversized bowl. It was like a -- a basin. And that would be just pounds and pounds of this batter, and then became the frying -- and I would have several 113:00pans going at once. And they're, of course, best right out of the pan. And my mom and dad would come over and my dad would eat them right out of the pan, hot like that. And you can't always get them like that, but they're always best right out of the pan. And it was -- it's very joyful for me now to share that, because I think my children remember those smells. And the smell, the aroma lingers in the house for days afterwards. And it's on your clothes and it's on everything. And you can just tell when it's Hanukkah, because you have that potato latke smell in your house.

MY:One more Yiddish food word I think is interesting that's used in the family -- how would your mother use the word "gedempt [moist]"?

DWY:Oh, gedempte fleysh [meat]. Well, your meat should be cooked gedempt, gedempte, because that meant falling off the bone. I don't know what it means 114:00literally, but my goal in life now has been reduced to one thing, and that's making a good brisket, because I don't think still that I've made a successful brisket, and that's a very sad point in my life. It should be the worst thing that ever happens to me. But your brisket should be gedempt. It should have a lot of yukh. And "yukh" meant the gravy that came out of it. And when my mother would serve gedempte fleys], she would ask us, "Do you want a little more yukh," (laughter) which really, you know, of course, had to be sopped up by the challah. And to serve it dry or without yukh would be -- I think you'd be arrested for that. It's some sort of crime. It has to be gedempte fleysh and with yukh. And I love when my children now say these words, you know? Whether it applies to something else, maybe -- just anything, and they say, "Do you want 115:00more yukh or -- you know, when I hear them say anything, that -- you know, "go shlufi [sleep], I'm going to go shlufi now," or whatever it is. All the words that we say, you know, do you -- "How's your kepi [head], because you had a headache?" Or, God forbid, you shouldn't have a headache. But all the words that were just in our everyday language that were Yiddish that I love that my children carry on -- and they've studied Yiddish, too, and -- as you have, so --

MY:And as Gabriel has --

DWY:Right.

MY:-- and -- yeah, and Joe for a semester. Anyway, yeah, they're -- what -- yeah?

DWY:No, I was just thinking that when our son, Samuel, and his bride Alyssa were just getting married, they were choosing songs for their processional, and Sammy 116:00wanted a song that was very special in Yiddish, "Pripetshik [Hearth]" --

MY:Yeah, "Oyfn pripetshik [On the hearth]."

DWY:-- "Oyfn pripetshik," which is a very, very sweet song about teaching the Yiddish alphabet --

MY:Yeah.

DWY:-- to a child. And, indeed, that's what was played when my husband and I were walking him down the aisle to the chupah. And I just found it very lovely that he -- that's the song that meant the most to him. That -- that's what he wanted for his wedding.

MY:And would you say that was partly a tribute to his grandmother?

DWY:Absolutely. Absolutely, because he now embraces that, and when he hears those melodies, it brings him back to her and our traditions and everything else. So, that's the feeling that he wanted to have walking down the aisle. You know, very bittersweet, but indeed sweet, because that's -- that's what inspired 117:00for her and for our family, this Yiddish music that ties us all together.

MY:Another word that I thought of that I think your parents used and you use, as well, is -- and one that you don't hear so much is "yold [sucker]."

DWY:Oy.

MY:Can you just describe what that was used to mean?

DWY:Yeah. (laughs) I didn't -- yeah, I don't know the origin of that. Maybe you can help me with that. But a yold was someone -- well, it's more than a nar [fool]. We also use the word nar, which is shortened form of narishkeyt [foolishness] or, you know, it's --

MY:A nar is a fool.

DWY:-- a fool.

MY:Narishkeyt, foolishness.

DWY:But a yold was even worse than a nar. A nar was sort of a fool, and maybe even a -- a -- someone you still feel affectionate about. But a yold was in a different category. If you called someone a yold, it was someone you really didn't want to associate with, that they had behaviors that were not attractive or admirable. So, what does it translate to, yold? Or is it just what it is? 118:00It's just a --

MY:Yeah, a term of derision, yeah.

DWY:So, yeah, if my parents called someone a yold, it meant that I should stay away from them. A nar, that's okay. It's a silly person. But, (laughter) yeah, we use the word nar a lot in our house. And our dad would tell Mr. Nar stories to the kids, where during that time, there was a series of books that was, like, Mr. Mischief or Miss Sunshine that talked about different characteristics of different people. But he would tell Mr. Narish stories, and these would be stories sort of maybe like the stories of Chelm, where there would be just a silly person who would make a mistake and something would transpire as a result of that mistake and it was silly. And he would make up his own Mr. Narish stories to entertain you children before you went to bed. And -- and you loved them.

MY:What sort of things would he read to you as a child?

DWY:Well, many, many things. One was A.A. Milne, and some of the stories by A.A. 119:00Milne, but a lot of the poetry, too. And he -- I can still hear him reciting "James James Morrison Morrison Weatherby John Dupree took great care of his mother. 'Mother," he said, said he, 'you must never go down to the end of the town if you don't go down with me.'" And he also read beautiful poetry from an anthology of children's poetry. "The Raggedy Man" and --

MY:And how does that one go?

DWY:"The Raggedy Man, he worked for paw. He was the finest man you ever saw, he" -- okay, I can't remember. Ogden Nash.

MY:And "The Children's Hour" --

DWY:And "The Children's Hour" --

MY:-- by Longfellow.

DWY:-- right. And, of course, with his voice, which was very deep and very expressive -- that he could read anything. He could read the phone book, people 120:00said, and he would make it sound good. But it was my father's voice and -- reading these things to me, and they became very precious. And when our children were young, we would read to them all the time. But one of their favorites was an anthology of stories about the adventures of K'TonTon, which was based on a character that was kind of like the Jewish Tom Thumb, which is a very, very small little boy that was born to a couple that prayed for a child, but -- and they got a very small child, and how he would jump on the chopping block of this chopper that was chopping up the gefilte fish in a bowl. And he wanted to ride on it, but indeed, he got caught in the batter of the gefilte fish. It always ended happily, but he had great adventures, this little Jewish boy called K'TonTon.

MY:A lot of wonderful stories. Is there anything we haven't touched on that you 121:00would like to -- that you --

DWY:Well, I can tell you we've talked a lot about the past, but I would like to talk about the future for a minute, and that is --

MY:Yeah, it's always nice, also, to get advice, if you have any advice --

DWY:Oh.

MY:-- for future generations. But go on.

DWY:Okay, and I'll do that, too. But when I spoke to my sister, Mimi, about my adventure and coming to this place today, this place where my son is working and studying and the place where my mother came to study, and now I'm here today and learning about it with my family -- and my sister said that we should plan a trip here next year and take a class together so we can become fluent in Yiddish and learn more about it, because we kind of speak -- speak kitchen Yiddish, or maybe not even that, but just the kind of Yiddishisms that are common in our 122:00language. But we want to learn more --

MY:In your family.

DWY:-- right, and we want to embrace more. So, that is our plan for the future. My sister and I want to come to this beautiful center and actively participate. And, as far as advice --

MY:Any advice you would have, yeah, for --

DWY:-- for --

MY:-- for the -- for future generations.

DWY:Well, I say -- you know what my mother said: just embrace who we are, celebrate who we are. Tell the stories of our family and our history and celebrate the things that make us, the Jewish people and the Yiddish language, unique, and keep it alive for the generations to come, because it -- it's still vital and it's still important. And it's in our hearts. And as long as we keep 123:00it there and talk about it and study it and celebrate it, it will be there, God willing, for generations to come. And I think it's a wonderful message to have. And when families raise children with Jewish hearts and Jewish feeling, I have an optimism about it, that they will teach their children, too, and so on. They say -- there's a Yiddish expression, I think, that says when you teach your son, you teach your son's son. And I think our having sons, it even means more. But really, what it means on a bigger picture is if you share the things that are important to you, naturally they will be passed down. So, I'm grateful that we're able to do that. And, God willing, our children will do the same with theirs.

MY:God willing, ameyn. So, I want to thank you very much, Debra, mother, for 124:00sharing your stories and reflections and ideas with me. It's been an honor to hear them, to hear ones I knew before and also to hear new ones. And I also want to thank you on behalf of the Yiddish Book Center for participating in our Wexler Oral History Project and for adding your stories to our archive.

DWY:Thank you, and I'm very grateful, Michael, for the opportunity to do so and to be able to visit the Yiddish Book Center today and be a part of this living history. So, thank you.

[END OF INTERVIEW]