BELLA KUPER SANDERSON ORAL HISTORY

CHRISTA WHITNEY: This is Christa Whitney and today is July 20th, 2016. I am here in Toronto with Bella Kuper Sanderson and we're going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Do I have your permission to record?

BELLA KUPER SANDERSON: Yes, you do.

CW:Thanks. So, I wanted to start by asking where does your family come from?

BKS:From Stoczek, Poland. My parents were both born there. My father's family, I think, comes more from Russia, but my mother's from Poland, and --

CW:What do you know about your grandparents' generation or earlier?

BKS:The only grandmother that I knew was my father's mother, because we met in Israel and she had come here for -- I think it was her seventieth birthday. So, I knew her. Didn't know the others. My mother's parents perished in the war, so I didn't know them. My grandfather died about a month before I went to Israel. So, we did go, we were there for the Shloshim, but never met. Well, I guess I did know him because I was born during the war, but don't remember him at all.

CW:And what was the occupation, the parnose, of the families? Do you know any of them?

BKS:I do. My mother's father was -- I believe he worked with harnesses, with 2:00horses. And my father's was a blacksmith. My father's father was a blacksmith. The women did not, I don't think, did not work, no.

CW:And were they frum [observant]?

BKS:I think in the shtetl [small Eastern European village with a Jewish community], everybody was frum. My mother's parents were religious, although -- my mother was the youngest and all her brothers and sisters were bundistn [Bundists]. And so, I think for them, it probably wasn't something they loved, but they accepted it. My father's parents were, I believe, frum. And my father was the oldest and he was the one and only one from his family that became a Bundist, because of my mother, which I think in my sister's story, this all comes out, how they met. They knew each other always. They were in the same shtetl. It wasn't a big one. And my father lived in the old part of the shtetl, 3:00my mother lived in the new part of the shtetl, and they were friends since the -- they went to school together since ten, but they knew each other before.

CW:Could you describe what you imagine or know the shtetl to be like?

BKS:Okay. I just actually watched what we had done with my mother, or my parents, the interview, and my mother describes the shtetl quite well. So, it was there was a bridge between the old and the new. And there was a -- like I said, a forest, but I think a -- small woods. That's where most of the youth hung out, at the -- there. In my father's house, they had -- they lived in part of the house and one room was where they -- the young people would get together. They had libraries. There was bundistn Zionists and Po'ale Tsiyonistn, I think 4:00they were. But the youth all came together. They were all there. They had people who came in from Russia, from Warsaw, and lectured to them. And they were -- although they didn't start school till later, they went to yeshiva, they were all really very well read. They read everything in Yiddish, everything that was translated into Yiddish. And I think the life there was poor. They didn't have very much, but they had each other. The families were big. My father had -- he was the oldest, there were two other brothers, and -- three brothers and a sister. So, there were six of them. And my mother had -- also, she had a brother who died before the war, an older brother who left for Argentina. She had a 5:00sister who went to Cuba before the war, and then there was another sister with two young children, and they perished at Treblinka with my -- her parents. And this is something that -- I have now started working on a tree and -- a family tree, and I have a file full of information about it. And I think when I find the time, and I'm hoping to do it, I will do work on that, because I think it's important for the following generations to know the family. And my parents, because we interviewed them -- I just went through it and I went through all the names, so I know -- up until my father's grandparents and my mother's grandparents. And my mother's grandmother, after the family was already in place, married my father's -- like, as they were -- when they were older, 6:00married my father's grandfather. And I'm named after the grandmother, Beyle, after the one who married my father's grandfather. So, there's a lot of -- I mean, this was after, so they were not really related. But they married later on, yeah.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

CW:I was just thinking, because we're talking about your parents' shtetl, if you could show these, just to give a sense --

BKS:Okay, should I pick it up, then?

CW:Yeah, just to give a sense of --

BKS:So, this was my father's house and the door in front. They lived in one part of it here. And the other one was where the -- one of the organizations, or maybe all of them, met at certain times in this part of the house.

HEATHER DANIELS PUSEY:It's a little bit hard to see that.

BKS:Oh.

HDP:Yeah, a little bit higher would be great.

BKS:Okay.

HDP:Would you mind just starting from the beginning?

BKS:So, this is my father's house. And there's the center door. On one side, the 7:00house -- the family lived. On the other side was a room where the organizations met, the youth, the youth organizations met. And I think all of them met at different times in there, and sometimes all of them. On the top here, they added to the house another room where a cousin of my -- actually, it wasn't a cousin. It was just a family -- friends of theirs lived there. This family moved to Australia, and my parents did go -- after they retired, they went and spent three months in Australia with this family, the Posozorskys. And we're still in touch with -- the father, mother have passed away but the two daughters still live there and we're in touch with them.

CW:Could you turn it around so -- just to show that, yeah.

BKS:The back is -- okay, so, that was my father's house. This was my mother's 8:00house. So, my mother -- my father always said my mother lived in the new area and they were wealthier than the -- my father's family. They lived in a house, and this is what their house looked -- and they all lived in this house. There was no one -- they didn't share the house with anyone else. And I think it has a back, as well, so.

CW:And your father made these models?

BKS:My father made these models and -- as a replica. My father loved doing woodwork, and we have lots of things in our house from him. This house here is with a -- well, okay, this house is with a thatched -- I think it's standing the other way. Yeah, no. This house is with a thatched roof, and it's not anyone's house specifically. But it's just a typical house with the fence around it, of a 9:00house in the shtetl. The other thing my father made was the horse and wagon. So, these were the horses. And there were no cars in Stoczek. And they got around by horse, by walking, and this is the sleigh. Not the sled, the wagon with the horse. My father did make a sleigh, as well, and in the short story that you saw and the -- my -- he made it when my sister's oldest son was born. And we would take it around. We would -- in the wintertime, in Montreal, we would use it and then when the -- her grandchildren, two of them anyways, have used it, as well. So, he made that, as well. He made lots and lots of things from wood. We have -- 10:00our house is filled with it.

CW:Could you just explain what the Bund is?

BKS:Okay, the Bund is a Jewish socialist organization. And in Poland, they were very active. It was a political organization and they were very active. And matter of fact, Steven Lewis's grandfather, David Lewis -- Moshe Lewis was the grandfather. He was very active in Poland in the Bund. And then, David Lewis, when we first came to Montreal, I remember it was the funeral of David Lewis. So, they were bundistn, as well. Then, I think their children were just socialists. But the Bund believed that Jews should be able to live wherever they want and live as Jews. And that was important to them, that they didn't have to have a land, necessarily, but to be able to live wherever they wanted. I think 11:00most of the bundistn later on, when Israel came to -- being weren't happy at the beginning. They were not for Israel. But I think eventually they all changed. They realized that it was important for the Jews to have a country.

CW:Doikayt [Bundist concept of "hereness"], right?

BKS:And I don't think there are any bundistn -- right now, they're socialists. We were brought up in a socialist house and whether we considered -- we went to a camp in New York called Camp Hemshekh, in the Adirondacks and it was a Bundist camp. And we were like the SKIFistn [members of the Bundist youth movement SKIF]. We wore the blue shirts, or -- I think it was blue shirts and red ties, which they did in Poland, as well. So, there were bundistn at that time. Now, I think we're just all -- we're socialists. Matter of fact, my sister's youngest 12:00son ran for the NDP here in Toronto. He didn't make it, but he ran and he's going to continue. He's a doctor, but that's what he's doing. Maybe one day he'll be in government.

CW:Do you know how your parents got involved in the Bund?

BKS:My mother -- because of her brothers and sisters. They got involved, I'm not sure how. But my mother just followed along with them. My father -- I think my mother was the one that actually brought him into the Bund. He liked her. My mother used to sell these newspapers, and he couldn't afford it but she would give it to him and he didn't really -- he wasn't that interested. And then, once he started reading what -- the leaflets that she handed out, he became, I think, probably more of a Bundist maybe than my mother. But they were both bundistn, yeah, and --

CW:When they talked about their childhood, what were the kinds of things they 13:00would say about the town and their early life?

BKS:I think life was hard for all of them. My mother, maybe a little easier, because she was the youngest and her parents didn't allow her to do any heavy work. But she was very good to her mother. And after -- my mother talked about the mikve [pool for ritual immersion]. She didn't like the mikve, for her mother to go there, so she would bring the water to her and wash her, because they used to use the mikve as their -- to wash themselves in the mikve. But she didn't want her mother to go down to the mikve. So, she was good to her mother, as well, to her parents. My father loved to read and always said it was his -- the brother that came after him, Shloyme, five years later, who worked hard -- my father worked, but he also took as much time as he could to run into the woods 14:00to read. So, he liked -- he was more of the reader than his brother. And I think they lived a very rich life. Not materially rich, but culturally rich in Stoczek.

CW:How is it that you came to be born where you were? Can you explain a little bit about that story?

BKS:Well, in 1939, when I -- my father's -- the old part of Stoczek when the Russians or the Nazis came in, they burned a lot of the property. My father's house was burned. So, they were looking for something else. And at that time, my father believed that Russia was good. There was communism there, but he thought it would be better than living in Poland. And when they saw what was coming, they decided that they would leave for Russia. And my mother went with my 15:00father. Her father said, "I lived through one era of German, I'm going to live through another one." He didn't want to go. But my father's family did go with him. So, my father's entire family survived the war because they left and went to Russia. And my mother's didn't, although one brother, I said, died before. Two of her siblings went away before they went, one to Argentina, one to Cuba. And the younger daughter was married with two -- well, she had -- her husband went to Argentina, was going to bring her to Argentina, and the war broke out in 1939. My mother was supposed to go with her, because her parents didn't want her to travel alone. And they never made it, but -- and his wife was pregnant, I think. At the time that he left, she was pregnant and he never got to see the youngest child. And they perished in the war, so I think this is something that 16:00I -- maybe one day I will go back. My daughter said she would maybe come with me, and I would love to see Stoczek. My mother's house is still standing. My father did go back with his oldest grandson, my sister's oldest son, to show him Stoczek. And he was standing in the -- I think it was near the marketplace, sort of in the center of the city, and somebody recognized -- not recognized him, but recognized his voice, that he -- they had heard it before. And his teacher was still there. So, he got to meet his teacher and introduce his grandson to his teacher that taught him at the school. And so, my parents went off to -- they were sent off to Siberia, in [Sitifka?]. And my sister was born in 1940, just 17:00when the World War started. And I was born a year before the war finished. And so, the end of 1943, in December of '43. So, when we left Russia, I was a year old. I really remember nothing at all. But I think my sister mentioned in her story that when -- things were very hard. My father sat in prison twice because -- once, he stole straw to make something for my sister, a bed for her, and the other time he said that he couldn't work because he was hungry. It wasn't easy in Russia. It wasn't the same as being in Germany or in Poland, in the ghettos, but life was not easy. They lived in barracks and they had to work hard. My mother was sick at the time with her back. She couldn't do anything, so my 18:00father had to work for her and him in order to get enough coupons for food, that they were able to get food. So, when I was born, actually, my father was not there. I didn't see him until I was a few months old and -- or a year, maybe, near the end, but -- and when he -- my mother or my parents told me, because I wouldn't remember, that when he did come back, I didn't want to go to him because I didn't know who he was. But life was hard there. But it was still -- they survived because of the Russians. A lot of people went from Siberia -- they were able to go down south, and my father would have gone except my mother -- he couldn't move my mother. My mother told him to go take us and go and save -- at least save himself and the two children. But my father wouldn't leave her, so they stayed. And because of that, we actually survived, because the people who 19:00did go down -- I think it was Tashkent or in the south. The people who did go down, a lot of their children did not make it because of the heat. They died from the heat and from lack of nourishment. So, we survived because we didn't -- my mother couldn't go. That made us survive. From there, we did go back to -- through Poland. But my mother met people who told -- my mother wanted to go home. She didn't know what happened to her family. And somebody had said that, "Everyone in Stoczek was taken to Treblinka. There's nobody left." So, she knew that her family did not survive, although my mother always had this feeling that maybe the two children had survived. But they didn't. So, from there we went to Munich, Pocking. We were in a DP camp until 1947. From there, we went to Paris, 20:00waiting for our -- so that we would be able to go to Cuba. We were waiting for a visa, whatever we needed. And then, from -- in 1948, we got to Cuba. We were there for two years. And my mother always said, "I traveled across Europe and saw nothing." She never got to see Europe, really, because the way they traveled -- and never got back to Europe, so -- but we came to -- we did go to Cuba. We were there for two years.

CW:What are your first memories? Where do you --

BKS:Mine would be Cuba. I remembered nothing -- even my sister, who was three years older than me, she said she remembered little things. Running. And she cried because she had to walk and my parents carried me or -- but she really didn't remember anything. And I think it's because life was hard. We were running. We didn't have -- it wasn't pleasant times. And so, when we got to 21:00Cuba, I was four. And that was my first memories. And even there, I'm not sure always if it's what my parents told me or I remember, but I do remember what my -- our house looked like. We lived in two different houses in Marianao, and I did go back to Cuba with my husband, probably about six years ago. And we had a guide who took us. Tried to find the street, the house. I don't -- we found the street but I couldn't remember the house. Everything looked much smaller than what I remembered it. I thought everything -- but anyway, but I did go back to Cuba. And I always had a very nice feeling about Cuba. I liked Cuban food and my aunt that -- my mother's sister lived with us. When Castro came in, they left Cuba. So, she came to Montreal. So, we got to know her well. And I'm very close 22:00with her daughter, Berta, who lives in Dallas. And my husband and I have gone to every bar mitzvah, every wedding, every bat mitzvah. Anything that comes with family -- and that's -- that I inherited from my parents -- is the most important thing. And we've never missed a wedding. We have a wedding coming up in August, in New York, and we're all going. And I try as much as possible for my children to always come with us, because I want them to know their cousins. Because when we're gone, if they don't know their cousins, they won't continue. And my daughter and my son both are very close to the cousins from my father's side and the cousins from my mother's side. From my mother, I only have the one cousin, Berta and her husband. But we're very close with them.

CW:Can you describe the home in Montreal where you lived?

BKS:In Montreal, our first home -- at first, we lived in a room, one room in somebody's house, but not for very long. When we came, my father -- we were able to come to Montreal because my father had a cousin with the same name. And he brought him across as a brother. Otherwise, we couldn't have come to Montreal. And, matter of fact, my cousin's here right now, visiting. So, we remained -- we always called them our aunt and uncle. I didn't know any other family. We didn't have family, although I had -- my grandparents lived in Israel. They lived in Israel and I didn't go, I didn't see them. So, for me, the family was my aunt -- Yitka and Zigmond Kuper and we were close with them. My father got work right away. My mother -- both of them worked. We lived -- and then, we lived in a house where we had a boarder, Mrs. Winter, I still remember. And then, we went 24:00into an apartment, and from there we went -- my sister and I went to Bancroft School. And our first street was on Hutchison, then we lived on Bérubé and then we lived -- and then we moved to -- when I went to high school, I went to Outremont High. My sister had gone to Baron Byng where all the Jews went. I wanted to go there, but my parents moved and at that time you had to go to the school in your area. So, I ended up going to Outremont and didn't like high school. Didn't like it because I -- all my friends were in Baron Byng. And I still have friends from then, from there, close friends that live now here in Toronto.

CW:And what was Jewish about your home growing up?

BKS:Well, we spoke Yiddish, first of all, and my father always made -- Wednesday night was the night where we -- no television, nothing else. We would read books 25:00together. We would do things in Yiddish. And my parents never got babysitters. So, we were taken with them. We would go to -- the Workmen's Circle was our family, was our home. We all met there. We went to school, afternoon school, which I wasn't happy about going, because I wanted to play. I didn't give my parents -- like my mother said, I didn't give them honik to lek [honey to lick]. I didn't give them an easy time. I rebelled a lot. But I changed after a while. And I will read that about -- I have something to read that I'd like to -- which tells this part, but -- so we went to the Yiddish theater. We went to Yiddish concerts. We would go to the Workmen's Circle, we would celebrate birthdays. One of our very close friends, which we almost consider as family, we do, Selina lives in Montreal. And we celebrated birthdays, 'cause we had our birthdays around the same time. And our life was at the Workmen's Circle -- matter of 26:00fact, my father was very much of a -- should have been an actor, I think, in his life. My mother, not so much. My mother was the quiet one, my father was the one who talked and was outgoing. And there was an actress who ended up in New York, acting with the -- oh, I'm trying to think of the name of the group that --

CW:Schwartz?

BKS:No, the group that now plays --

CW:Folksbiene?

BKS:The Folksbiene. She was in the Folksbiene, but years ago. And there was, I think it must have been New Year's Eve or something, my father got up and did a jitterbug with her and I cried. I was so embarrassed. And it reminded me of Danny Kaye -- when Danny Kaye said the same thing with his daughter when he acted and she was sitting in the front row and everybody was laughing, and she cried because she thought they were laughing at her father. So, this was the same way. I cried because I was embarrassed my father was doing the jitterbug with somebody else. But anyways, but that's -- so, we had -- it was good. Our 27:00childhood was very good. We had a good childhood, but not religious. I was the only one in the family who -- on Yom Kippur, I fasted. I've always fasted. I still do. And always went to hear shoyfer [shofar] blows. My parents were appalled. I was the one that started that we should light candles in the house. And my mother said, "If you want, that's fine." She never stopped us from doing what we wanted to do, but she wouldn't do it. My mother would not say the brokhe [blessing]. But if we wanted to, that was fine. Passover, I've always kept Passover. And somehow, to me, that made me feel that I was Jewish with everyone else, not different. Because being in a socialist home is -- sometimes, you were different from the other children.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

BKS:So, for my mother's unveiling, I was trying to find something that I wanted 28:00to read, and I found a poem by Malka Lee, in Yiddish, and I read it then. I use this poem, which my sister and I translated into English, to do this digital story that I did with -- my daughter didn't do it with me, because I didn't want her to be the one there. Somebody else actually worked with me, and it was a three-day workshop, which we talked about what we wanted to do. From the beginning to the end, the story changed, but -- and I wrote pages and pages, and all I got was one page left. And this is -- so, I do quote the poem, but in English. "I spin a jewelry string for you of all my days and years. When my children prepare for their journey, your images stand behind them. Your words are embedded in me. The maturing years deepen my perceptions. I challenge the teachings of my parents who had gone through the Second World War in Poland and 29:00then Russia, where my sister and I were born. Their life was difficult, but they lived by their Bundist and Yiddishist beliefs. They wanted their lives and the lives of their children to have meaning. As a child growing up in Montreal after the war, I wanted to be like my Canadian Jewish friends. I wanted to blend in. I had a wonderful childhood and knew that I was loved unconditionally. We, my sister and I, were everything to my parents and they, in turn, gave of themselves and their time to us. They wanted us to continue their Yiddish culture, secular tradition, and socialist beliefs. I rebelled in my teen years by going to synagogue, not wanting to speak Yiddish, attending classes with a rabbi. My parents questioned my actions and motives. They knew that the roots would flourish in time. Only after my children were born did I start to 30:00understand the legacy that was passed on to me, and I wanted to pass it on to them. We moved to Toronto, leaving my family in Montreal. It was a difficult move, as I wanted my parents and sister and her family to be an integral part of our lives. Six years later, my family was once again reunited in Toronto. Parents, as hard as we try, are not perfect and children challenge parents. As I did, so did Ranni and Blair. Ranni did it with her outward appearance. Blair always agreed, and then did his own thing. The difference was that they had grandparents who were there to soften the blow for them. They spent time together instilling in my children their love of books, love of adventure, and listening to stories of their past. I missed out on not having grandparents and treasured their relationship. My children, in return, opened up a new world for my parents, accepting and appreciating their differences and understanding the 31:00changing times. My parents and I got the opportunity to become good friends. Didn't always agree, but respected each other and our differences. The last month of my father's life, as we spent hours and hours together, he let me know that he loved me as a friend, and loved how Ranni and Blair turned out and credited me for it. My children and I now have the same relationship, and I consider both of them very special friends. I am now able to listen, take advice from them, especially about my future endeavors and being here to prove it, because doing this digital storytelling was not something that I did easily. It came very difficult, but I decided that it was a challenge and I was going to do it. That which we did not achieve, we wove into my children. And so, as with 32:00good claret, I decanted it into golden goblets." So, that was in Yiddish, as well. The poem is in Yiddish that -- from Malka Lee. But I translated, I did -- because I wanted to do it in English so that future generations will be able to have it.

CW:Do you want to read it in --

BKS:In Yiddish?

CW:-- Yiddish and maybe explain why it's meaningful to you?

BKS:Well, I think the -- because the poem, actually, most of the poem is there. It's just there were only a couple of lines that were different, that I left out in the English. (reading) "[Yiddish - 00:32:39 to 00:33:30]." So, the one that 33:00wasn't there, dayn gutskayt, "Her goodness, her beauty, and her being went through into my blood, and I passed it on to my children."

CW:Nice.

BKS:And I think my children were probably the luckiest ones, my sister's, as well, to have my parents because, as I said, neither of my children gave my parents an easy time, either. But my parents loved them, unconditional. Didn't 34:00matter what they did. My daughter went through a stage where she had purple hair and pink hair and tattoos or whatever, and my parents thought everything she did was beautiful. It didn't matter, because they knew her inside and the inside was important. The outside appearance didn't matter at all. And I think for them, this was wonderful, that -- because parents don't always show their children that they love them unconditionally. But they knew from my parents the love was there. There was just no question about it. And they gave them hard times. My mother -- they suffered through a lot of things. But they understood and then when -- the time where my sister's older son, who also was not an easy child -- when he met his future wife and my father saw what she did for him, that she 35:00made him so happy, that he felt that this was -- it didn't matter that she was Chinese or she wasn't Jewish or whatever. If it made his grandson happy, he was happy, as well. And that's why, on his tombstone -- and I said that I had -- I just got to --

CW:Yeah.

BKS:And on his tombstone, he had read this poem when he held this -- when they got married, my father was there. He was at the wedding. And he spoke, and so he read the poem of Yud Lamed Peretz and it was put to music of Beethoven. "Vayse, broyne, shvartsn, gele --- mish di farbn alts tsuzamen --- ale mentshn zaynen brider, fun eyn tatn, fun eyn mamen [White, brown, black, yellow --- mix the colors all together -- all people are brothers, from one father, from one mother]." And very many people, I think, of my father's age would not have accepted -- my father would not have accepted my sister and I so quickly. And I 36:00challenged him with that as well. But I did end up marrying somebody that was Jewish. But I did challenge my father every step of the way. And my father accepted everything that -- and at the end, as I said, we became really good friends. We did meet at the end because our life together was -- it went up and down because I did -- that's the way I was. And my daughter challenged us. And now, really, I couldn't ask for a better friend as my daughter and my son who's here now, as well. We went through hard times with him. He was not well in the beginning. And he does well. He's doing well, so --

CW:One thing I wanted to ask you about was the theater growing up. You were involved in it as a kid?

BKS:This is the Dora Wasserman, so -- because Dora Wasserman at that time came 37:00to our school, our afternoon school, and she put on plays with us. And she was an unbelievable woman, because she was -- her plays, everyone got a part. It didn't matter whether you can act or not or sing. If you wanted, you were able to be in her plays. And she was very accepting of everyone that was there. She was a very unusual woman. But she was very tsefloygn [distracted, absentminded]. You can see in her clothes, she didn't care whether things matched or not, it didn't matter and -- but she was just a -- she was loved by all. And she continued the theater in Montreal. To this day, it still -- I'm not sure if it's -- I don't think there's a theater now, but it went on for many, many years. And it was like a love-hate relationship with her that people had, because she used to yell at them, she used to scream at them, she was upset with them, but they loved her. There was something about her that people loved. And her daughter is 38:00the one that is up in New York and quite a different personality, but still does a wonderful job. So, thank goodness for these people who did this, 'cause if -- without Dora Wasserman -- and she got paid nothing until it went in -- she got paid very little, but until -- once the Saidye Bronfman opened up, that's when she started making money, because she got paid. But before then, she didn't care. She was doing it for the love and not for the money.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

CW:I just want to ask about the theater. Did you go to the theater as a kid?

BKS:We did. We saw Maurice Schwartz and probably others, as well. I don't remember -- but I do remember seeing Maurice Schwartz, because he was such a powerful person. We did. We went to the Monument-National in Montreal, yeah, and we've continued. We still -- we go here to the Harold Green Theatre and they bring -- not Yiddish, but Jewish-themed plays. So, we do support things that -- 39:00as much as we can in Yiddish, yeah.

CW:What did the theater look like, the Monument?

BKS:Well, children -- we did it from the school. I never joined Dora Wasserman later because I wasn't in Montreal long enough. When Dora Wasserman actually started doing adults acting, I wasn't with her because we lived in London, Ontario for two years and then we came here. My children were young, so I didn't -- but we put on plays, we put on the "A khasene in shtetl [A wedding in the shtetl]" and I was the bobe [grandmother] and my sister, I think, was the zeyde [grandfather]. And we had other people, the batkhn [wedding entertainer] and it was wonderful. It was very nice. And I did a skit with "Take Me Out to the Ball Game." I was a boy who didn't want to go to school. And so, there were all kinds of skits that she did. But we play -- every year, we put on a play and it was 40:00fun. We enjoyed it. But I didn't go on with her after. I actually -- I had wanted to be an actress, and my father encouraged if I wanted, and I took lessons for a while with Khayele Grober, who was a well-known actress in Europe but also in Montreal. So, I did study with her, then realized that that's -- that was not going to be my profession, so I stopped. But my parents were -- encouraged us with whatever we wanted to do. Piano, I took piano for a little while. My sister was the one that plays the piano. I don't. And I didn't because I didn't want to practice. So, I stopped playing piano. But if I wanted to do something -- my father would take us skating 'cause he thought it was important. My father was -- he tried, I think, going into his own business and it didn't work. My father was not a businessman. But my father took us places. He would take us skating in Outremont. He didn't skate, but he would take us skating. He 41:00would take us to the mountains to go sledding. So, he would do all kinds of things with him -- with us on the weekend. Where other fathers maybe worked more -- my father worked very hard, they -- my mother -- both worked. My mother was in the kitchen and my father would take us out and do things with us, yeah.

CW:Can you describe what Khayele Grober was like?

BKS:I don't remember her that well, but I just remember her teaching me how to breathe. I remember her hands, the way she moved her hands. She would teach us how to move our hands. Me. It was private. And how to breathe from the stomach up. She was very -- prominent-looking woman. But I don't remember that well -- but I must have been seven, eight years old when I was with her, and I didn't last that long with that, either, yeah.

CW:I wanted to ask a little more about the -- and we will get to that thing -- 42:00about your interest in religion when you were a kid, where that came from and --

BKS:Because that -- my Canadian friends went to shul, they went to the synagogue. They fasted. And I wanted to be like them. And I wanted -- I guess I just always questioned -- even when I was older, I studied with the rabbi at Beth Zion, I think it was Beth Zion, and with two other of my friends, and they -- one of them became very religious, one of my friends that I studied with. I just want to know why -- not religion and -- I questioned why socialism, why not? So, I wanted to know why I was not taking on something or not doing something. See, my father knew how to daven. My father had -- when he did a seder, he knew everything. He knew why he didn't want it. I wanted to know why also, why I would not want to do that. And it didn't -- after a while, it didn't 43:00interest me. And my other friend moved to Vancouver and she does go to synagogue. They both go to synagogue. I don't. My husband's got -- and my husband's actually -- his family was religious. He was brought up in a religious home. They went to synagogue and his mother kept kosher and I didn't, so -- I think if he had insisted, I could've gone that -- I could've gone either way. But because he wasn't that strong about being religious, I didn't. But I still keep more than -- I mean, I always lit candles. I used to say the brokhes [blessings] over the candles. I only stopped saying them after my mother passed away. My mother passed away in a very hard way for me and I thought, Well, if He 44:00could do this to my mother, God, maybe there isn't a God. That's when I really went away from -- not believing that there was a God. So, that wasn't that many -- my mother passed away twelve years ago. But I still want to do -- Friday night, the family, we all get together Friday night. I light the candles, I make the challah. I just want my children to -- and they love coming Friday night. They've always wanted to come and they still come. They all do it. And not because we force them, because if they wanted they can always go out, but they want to come because this is family time. Friday night is family time. And it's not for any religious reasons, but just because that keeps us together as Jews. My son is going out with a non-Jewish girl and she's wonderful. I think the best thing that happened to her, and I'm fine with it. I have no problems with that at all. So, I believe in the socialist -- that everyone is equal. My sister's 45:00two daughters-in-laws, I just -- I love them. They're very -- they call me "mume Bella" [aunt Bella] and we're very close. So, it doesn't matter to me but -- and they love coming Friday night. They make the challah. If I don't, they do the challah and they want to learn all the Jewish cooking and it just -- it's the Jewishness more than the religion.

CW:Do you want to read the --

BKS:My father's --

CW:-- kashes [questions]?

BKS:Yeah.

CW:And maybe just explain --

BKS:So, we do the -- yeah, we do the fir kashes [the Four Questions at the Passover seder], we do them in Yiddish. And my sister's grandchildren now say them. We used to say them till they -- or my kids used to say them and -- but my father, we loved Pesach. Pesach was one of our best holidays. My father led the seder in Hebrew. He did use some Yiddish, as well. But he always put in little 46:00nice things in between. So, he made sure that we were listening. If we weren't listening, we -- he made jokes during it, and it was just always fun. They loved Passover. We sing all our songs we sing, we sing in Yiddish. And the children are all learning them, my -- sometimes if I say, "Maybe we shouldn't sing," my kids, my children say, No, no, we have to sing the songs. And they -- my sister's teaching it to her grandchildren. So, the Yiddish lives on in that way. And this is "Dem tatns fir kashes [My father's Four Questions]": (singing) "[Yiddish - 00:46:32 to 00:47:30]." So, he's questioning, why did they look up 47:00to somebody. He's president of the synagogue. He works on the Sabbath -- that he holds open the door. He works Saturday, and yet he's president of the synagogue. 48:00And why? Because he has money. People look up to him. People look up to people because they have money, not because -- for any other reason. So, that's the -- and the children always insist that we do the kashes like that, those kashes, as well. So, I think in the legacy that my parents have left is that we are different from others, but we're the same as a lot of our friends. A lot of our friends are the same way as we are and -- but in our house, I think even though my husband was brought up not speaking Yiddish, his mother did. His father was born in Canada, didn't speak Yiddish. But he learned to speak Yiddish in our family. And my parents were very important to him. My parents treated him like a son that they never had. My father always wanted to have a son, and I think my husband was his son. And it's just there was something in our home that we 49:00brought in that the difference was okay. And --

CW:Did they ever articulate to you or talk to you about the importance of Yiddish to them, about being a Yiddishist, what that meant to them?

BKS:My parents? Yes, because my -- Yiddish was not just a language, although the language was important because if they didn't speak Yiddish, then it would be forgot-- my father believed very much in -- that Yiddish, not Hebrew. So, I never learned Hebrew. My sister did because she went to the seminar. I don't speak Hebrew but my husband was brought up with Hebrew, so he does -- now, with seders, he leads the seder because he can do it in Hebrew. But we read in English because there -- too many people at the table now that are not speaking Yiddish. But the songs, we sing in Yiddish. Now I forgot the que-- the 50:00importance of the --

CW:Did they talk to you about what --

BKS:Yeah.

CW:-- it meant to be a Yiddishist?

BKS:What it meant? It meant -- well, there -- I don't think it was anything that they had to -- to them, that was their life. Yiddish was their life. In the shtetl, everybody spoke Yiddish. Yiddish was part of their upbringing. And they spoke Polish, as well. My father spoke Russian and Polish. My mother, too. But Yiddish was in the home. My father was very strict with us about speaking Yiddish. We had to speak Yiddish. And that's why I rebelled against it. But then, later on, I realized that if he hadn't done that, we probably would not have continued it. So, his stubbornness in wanting us to speak and -- made us, I think, do it. So, that's why I said we became -- I understood later why he did what he did. My father was very strict with us. He was not -- we had to do -- we 51:00had to have the Wednesday night where we did -- we spent together reading Yiddish. I wanted to be outside. I had to go to Yiddish school whether I liked it or not and -- but now, I always say my teacher -- I gave my teacher in Yiddish school a very hard time. And I always say -- Leonard Grosman, who -- he was a wonderful person but not a great -- they weren't great teachers at that time because they couldn't make a living any other way, so they taught. But it wasn't that that was their profession, teaching. So, I said he would turn over in his grave if he knew what I was doing for Yiddish, because now, I do Yiddish programs with seniors. Although I was a teacher -- I went to school, I graduated as a teacher and I taught in Montreal. I never taught after that. But really, I wasn't a great teacher. I think I missed out on what I really should have been 52:00doing -- I think more social work and -- which my son is now doing. But I enjoy the seniors immensely. I love going there, I love being with them, I love what I get out of them, and I always tell them that they give me more than I give them. And I go to three different places that I do Yiddish programs on Monday. And afterwards, last Monday, one of them said she needs -- she'd like to talk to me. I spent an hour with her after, because that's what they need. They need the friendship, they -- and I always tell them, "You have to thank my parents. My parents brought me up that I should do these things. Without them, I would not have done it."

CW:Can you explain the type of programs that you're doing?

BKS:What I do with them -- first of all, in some homes, it's not -- at Kensington, I do -- a lot of them are okay. Some people come there just because 53:00they want to hear the Yiddish music, the Yiddish songs. But I always tell them that first you have to have the appetizer, then you get the main course. So, they have to listen to a little bit of Yiddish from me. Either I read them a story or "Mishpokhe kheyndelekh [Little family jokes]" from the "Forwards" -- or I ask them to -- they don't want to speak that much. They're not comfortable. A lot of them don't -- they understand Yiddish but they haven't used it in a long time. And then, I have videos that I show them. It has to be a video. So, I have a cantor singing, but it's all in Yiddish. Whatever I show them, it's in Yiddish and they love -- they could hear "Oyfn pripetshik [By the fireplace]" a hundred times and they just -- and that was actually my favorite song from my mother. When my mother was not well, that's what I sang to her, "Oyfn Pripetshik." It's a song that's just very warming to them and they love the Yiddish. Baycrest, I have a much harder time. I go to Baycrest and there I volunteer. The others, I 54:00do get paid and I only go once a month. So, it's not supporting me. But they're private places and I feel that they should feel that Yiddish is as important -- they bring in people to do other programs. They bring someone in to do Yiddish, they should also pay for that, too. So, it's not the money, but it's just that it's a private place. Baycrest, my parents were both in Baycrest, and this is my way of giving back to Baycrest that I now volunteer. But it's a very difficult program for me there, because most of them that come in are not -- a lot of them have dementia or whatever. But they all know, they hear the song, and all of a sudden their eyes shine and they are just bright, but they -- I don't do that much storytelling there, because they -- if it's more than a sentence they would not remember it. So, there I do a little bit less. I do more just of the music. But I'm there also not just to give them the music. I give them -- of myself. 55:00And they come -- I always say as long as they come, I'll come. And they say as long as I come, they'll come. So, it works both ways.

CW:So, at what point did you become interested in Yiddish again sort of after rebelling?

BKS:After my children. When my children were born, I spoke Yiddish to them and my husband spoke English. So, they got both. My sister and her husband both spoke Yiddish. My husband couldn't speak Yiddish well enough to speak to the children. So, I spoke to them in Yiddish. I wanted my children to be able to communicate with my parents. And if it wasn't in Yiddish -- my parents spoke English but not well. And really, they were able to communicate much better in Yiddish. So, I wanted my children to know Yiddish. And once we came to Toronto, after my sister came, we joined a group -- we actually started the group Friends 56:00of Yiddish. We have a group here, Friends of Yiddish. It's changed over the years, but we do programs in Yiddish. So, we've always done things like the Workmen's Circle, we have programs in Yiddish we do with Friends of Yiddish. So, we're active in the Yiddish community and the Jewish community, the Yiddish community, not the synagogue community. Just the cultural part. And so, that's continued. And I brought my husband with me on these things. He's also -- he belongs to the Workmen's Circle, he belongs to Friends of Yiddish, so --

CW:Looking back, what did you learn from them?

BKS:From my parents? I think the importance of family, the importance of being kind, the importance that material things are not the most important thing. It's more important to give of yourself, which I -- the volunteering, really giving 57:00to others. And I think kindness. My parents were both kind people and I think my sister and I are -- same. And family, we -- sometimes the money isn't there but we still -- my husband and I go to -- and our children and we pay for them because they can't afford to do it now. Maybe one day -- my daughter always says, "When I have money," she says, "I'll pay for you." And that's -- as long as I have, my children have. And we go to everything that takes place in the family. And we've -- last year, we must have traveled to the States seven times. We had bar mitzvahs, we had weddings, we had -- and we go to everything and as long as -- as far as -- if my children can come with us, they do. Now we're going to the wedding, this -- my son is bringing his girlfriend for the first time to meet my family. And we're all, the five of us, are going. And my sister 58:00and her older son is going, as well. So, I think being with the family and the younger people, being with their cousins, it's very important for us. And I think that my parents gave that to us. That's the legacy that they gave us, the culture, the social -- and the kindness to people, I think that's what they gave us.

CW:Well, I have just a -- two more questions, but I wanted to see if there were things that you wanted to talk about?

BKS:Not really, no. I think I want to meet -- and it's not easy for me to do this, but I found -- I want there to be a record of what my parents have left. I mean, for me, my parents are everything. And my children now are everything. I 59:00don't think there will be grandchildren from us, and I tell my children that that's okay. They have to do what's good for them, not -- because I will be fine. My husband and I have a wonderful relationship and we will go on with it without grandchildren. And my sister, they always kid me that I share her grandchildren with her. And we do things, we took her -- my husband and I took her two older granddaughters, nine years old, to see "Matilda." And I'm taking them to see the Chihuly exhibit because we belong to the ROM, we belong to the art gallery, we belong to the Mirvish Theatre. We go to the symphony. And we pass that on to our children, that the culture is very important.

CW:Of Yiddish literature, which I know you're familiar with, do you have 60:00favorite writers?

BKS:Not like my sister. I read because I read in school. I don't really read on my own, but we do go to the reading -- leyenkrayz [reading group], and that's where I read. But also --

CW:Can you describe that a little bit?

BKS:The leyenkrayz, we just had it on -- we meet once a month and Anna and this Gloria Brumer, I don't know if you've interviewed her or not or -- so, she is -- actually, I go Sunday morning. I go to Yiddish events, Yiddish classes, which Gloria Brumer teaches. And it's done by the Committee for Yiddish, they sponsor these classes. So, I do continue with that. And the leyenkrayz, we meet once a week, once a month, and we read stories. So, everybody around -- I think the last time, there were twelve people and there was a young man in his -- I think in his twenties that has decided to join us, which is just wonderful because 61:00most of them are older. But we have a few younger people. And we read Yiddish. So, that, for me, is when I get a chance to read. And I enjoy it. I love it. We read Bashevis Singer and I loved his stories. And we've -- Sholem Aleichem and Peretz. And so, I do -- when I was looking for the poem to say for my mother, I went through lots of poetry. I wanted to read a poem. So, I read lots of poetry. So, if I'm forced to do it, I do, but I don't do it on a -- ongoing basis, but I liked Avrom Reyzen. I remember we did meet -- see him in Montreal when he came. And so, I don't have a specific one that I like, but I like Sholem Aleichem. I don't think I want to see "Fiddler on the Roof" ever again because I've seen it so many times. But that's not Sholem Aleichem exactly. So, it was, yeah, no, I don't have a specific one and I do -- I regret that I don't read enough Yiddish, 62:00but that's why I force myself, 'cause we do read in the Yiddish class that we have and we read in leyenkrayz. And I do read, in order to read stories to my groups, I do go through and read stories, yeah. So, I look for them. So, I do a little bit, but not books. I don't really read books.

CW:And do you have an eytse [piece of advice] for the --

BKS:Future?

CW:-- for the future --

BKS:Future?

CW:-- generations?

BKS:Well, I see with my -- I can just tell with my sister's grandchildren that -- my father was wonderful with children. He was just -- he loved playing. He would get down on the floor and do it. My sister has taken over that role. I'm not the same with children. I think I do better with adults. But she is very good and in my family, my daughter has taken over that. My sister's four 63:00grandchildren would move in with my daughter, if she had the space, right now. They just love her. She does magic. My father did magic with our children. My sister does magic with her grandchildren and my daughter also. And she does lots of things with them. They're coming to the Chihuly, they're bringing a sketchbook, and she's coming with us. My daughter's going to come with us. My sister always says only when my daughter is there does she take second place, otherwise she's first. (laughter) And he goes to the art gallery with my daughter, her grandson, and he loves to sketch paintings. And I have a painting of his hanging. He painted for us and it's hanging. It's framed. So, it would be different to have my own, but my sister's children, they just -- they're very 64:00good to me. I thank my nephews and my nieces, their wives, every day for allowing me to be part of their children's lives, and I am.

CW:And is there anything that you would want to communicate to maybe their children?

BKS:To their -- to my --

CW:Just to the future --

BKS:To the little ones? To the four little -- I think just to thank them for being in my life. I love being with them and they're very nice to me and they're good and -- but I love to see my daughter with them. And she loves children but she's decided -- she's forty-five and she's decided that she doesn't want to have children. She doesn't want to bring children -- her master's is in environmental studies and she just doesn't feel that she wants to bring children into the world. But she loves these kids and she always says, "If you ever want 65:00to leave your house, you can come live with me." Yeah, and they love her. They come in, they -- and the thing that she gives to them is books. She never brings other gifts, but she always has a book for them. She does some work with small print and they know when they come in, What book did you bring for me? What are we reading? And she reads all kinds of books with them. She's given them the love of reading that my father passed on to us, as well. So, this is the legacy. It's continuing. (laughs)

CW:Yeah, that's wonderful. Well, a hartsikn dank [thank you very much].

BKS:Thank you.

CW:Thank you very much for taking this time to --

BKS:Thank you for coming this far to be with us, as well. And as my sister said, I'm sure that -- "After they left, I thought of all these things that I wanted to say." So, I did -- that's why I sort of prepared that -- I didn't want to forget. And I probably have, but at least something will be on record about my 66:00family, my parents. I really feel that Chaim and Freydke -- so, her granddaughter's named after my mother, Freydkele. And her grandson is named Chaim after my father.

CW:Yeah.

BKS:As my children were named after my mother's mother and father. And my mother always said, "My parents are with your children." So, it's Chava, although I call them in English -- but it's Chava. My daughter said she would've preferred being called Chava than Ranni, but we gave her Ranni. So, Chava and my son is Leibel, which were my parents' -- my mother's parents. So, these things continue on. And I like the tradition that you name your children after somebody special to you. I think now a lot of the children don't. I think, especially in Israel, I think they name after trees and, I don't know, flowers. But I think it's nice, 67:00that -- sort of the continuation. And my children are very proud that they're named after my mother's parents.

CW:Very nice. Great, thank you.

BKS:Okay, thank you.

[END OF INTERVIEW]