PATRYCJA DOLOWY ORAL HISTORY

AGNIESZKA ILWICKA: This is Agnieszka Ilwicka, and today is 28th July, 2016. I'm here in Warsaw in Patrycja's parents' apartment, just nearby the National Library of Poland, with Patrycja Dolowy, and we are going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Patrycja Dolowy, do I have your permission to record this interview?

PATRYCJA DOLOWY: Yes. (laughs)

AI:Thank you very much for this. I would like to start with your family background. Could you please briefly tell me about your family background?

PD:My Jewish family background. (laughs) Yeah. I'm from a family in which our 1:00Jewish history, our Jewish identity, was kind of unspoken story. But it wasn't exactly unspoken, because it was something which we really -- we, the children -- we knew. We knew that we are Jews. I can exactly remember the day when we were playing in the car. We were going to some kind of holiday with my friend and my sister, and in the front of the car was my father. He was driving the car, and his friend also drove. And we were playing, and it was, like, some kind of -- I don't know, I think we were playing -- we were supposing that this is 2:00war or something, and this -- my friend, he said, "Juden raus [German: Jews out]," but he didn't know what does it mean; he just heard it somewhere. And then, it was silent, and my father said, "Hey, children, do you know what does it mean -- a Jew -- or Jews?" And we said, No, we don't know. And he said, "So, we are the Jews." (laughs) So, it was -- I can exactly remember. I was five, my friend was also five, and my sister was three-and-a-half.

AI:So, it was early '80s?

PD:Yeah.

AI:Okay.

PD:Yeah. So, I can remember it. But in my family, it wasn't exactly like that we -- we haven't been spoken about it -- speaking about it. It was, rather, that it was something that we knew that we shouldn't tell outside the family, and we 3:00knew it just by -- I don't know what. (laughs) I don't know from what kind of medium we know that we are not supposed to speak about it loudly outside the family. It was, like, something maybe we get from the -- I don't know, mother's milk or something. (laughs) Because we just -- we just knew it. And so, it was this kind of family. And my Jewish roots are from my father's side. And that was what was always obvious, as I said -- but not spoken outside. And my mother was in my family, this -- now I think about these kind of people like they are kind of guards, and my mother was a kind of guard, so she was the guard of this 4:00Jewish history in my family.

AI:But she wasn't Jewish herself?

PD:She wasn't Jewish. Now we think that maybe in my mother's side of family, they were also Jewish --

AI:Origins.

PD:-- origins. I mean, it was one line in this family, in this family tree. And I've known it for about two years, so it's not -- it is something new. For all my life, we knew that it is something which was from my father's side, but the guard of this history was my mother. So, now I think that the kind of guard of this -- my Jewish history in my family is my husband, so I think it is, like, 5:00okay, just this way. (laughs) It should work that way. So, my mother was the one who was reading and writing letters to Israel, to United States, where was -- another elder members of my family, they were there.

AI:Wait, wait, wait. Slow down. (laughter) We have to make an order a little bit.

PD:Okay. (laughs)

AI:So, is your family from Warsaw originally? Like, back in time?

PD:The part of my family is from Warsaw, and the part of my family is from Łódź. This is the city in the central Poland. And this part of my family which is from Łódź is -- was previously -- I mean, their fathers, 6:00grandfathers, and so on -- were from the east of the Poland. Now it is not Poland; now it is Lithuania and Belarus. So, they were from this east, east side -- from Kopciowo and Ciechanowiec. And Ciechanowiec is still in Poland. And there is one synagogue in Ciechanowiec. So, one member of my family was founded -- I mean, he founded this -- was one of the people who founded this synagogue --

AI:Oh, wow.

PD:-- in Ciechanowiec. Yes. But he's not exactly from my family, because he used to be husband of my grand-grandmother, but then they divorced, and then she hate 7:00my grand-grandfather, so he's not exactly, like, a -- someone --

AI:He's not from blood, but he's --

PD:Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, we -- we know about him. (laughs)

AI:Wow! (laughs) Do we know why they divorced?

PD:Yes, because he was very old and rich, and she was very young and beautiful, and very smart. And he asked his younger -- I mean, young worker in his company to just look after his young wife, (laughs) because he's too old, and he hasn't got enough energy for (laughs) -- for going to dancing and things like that. So, he asked him, and he said okay, and they were going to this dance hall, so 8:00(UNCLEAR). (laughs) So, this was this kind of history. (laughter) But they were really deep -- fell in love with each other till the very last days of their lives, in the Łódź Ghetto, Litzmannstadt Ghetto.

AI:They both perished in the Holocaust?

PD:Yes.

AI:Okay. What was your family profession? Do you know a little bit about this?

PD:What do you mean, profession?

AI:In terms of jobs.

PD:In -- members of my family?

AI:Yeah. But, I mean, like, grand--

PD:In the past?

AI:Yeah, grandparents --

PD:So, my grand-grandfather, when he got married with my -- my 9:00grand-grandmother, after this (laughs) scandal, (laughs) they went to Łódź, and he found a kind of company, and he was selling wool -- I think wool -- or maybe -- I'm not sure. So, it was kind of -- of small manufacturer. But he was quite rich in those days. And we know that because in the '80s, there was one guy who used to be my grandmother's boyfriend before the war, and he came to Poland, and he told us a story that during those days, they -- his parents remember these days from before the war and before this big crisis. So, he said 10:00that they have six horses or something like that, so it's something that -- only rich people has six horses. And my grandmother remember that their apartment was really huge, and they could ride a bicycle -- bicycles in the house -- (laughs) so, in this apartment. So, it was huge, really. So, he was, like, owner of manufacture, you can say. Now I can't remember if it was wool, really. Because it was this other material that we -- opposite -- not this very popular material; this other material. So, I'm not sure if it was -- because of one of 11:00this material, which was very famous, and it was this other. So, I'm not sure if it was wool. But maybe.

AI:Okay. And your mother's side?

PD:And my mother's side -- my grand-grandparents, they both were teachers in the village schools. I mean, they lived in Warsaw --

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

AI:And now I would like to jump into your story.

PD:Um-hm.

AI:So, you were born in the last decade of communism in Poland?

PD:Yes, '78, so you can say that it was the last decade.

AI:And were you born here, in Poland?

PD:Not exactly. (laughs) In Boston, Massachusetts, USA. My parents those days, 12:00my father was kind of -- not kind of -- he was a post-doc in Boston. And my mother, she just came to him. And it was not so easy to get passport, but in the end, she's got one, and they were in Boston -- they lived in Boston for two years. And then, they decided, with me, to go back to Poland, because they wanted to fight for the freedom in Poland. (laughs) It was like, everybody said they must be joking, but they went back. (laughs)

AI:Now, seriously?

PD:Seriously. Yeah, seriously. It is very hard. It's a part of my family's story which is really hard, because my line -- my family, and me, in the end -- we are 13:00from this line of family which always stayed here in Poland. So, before the war, the part of family, they went away to -- they went to USA, for example, to Russia, some of my family. And this part which stayed, they -- it was Holocaust, so a lot of people, they just didn't survived. But my grandmother, she survived, and her sisters, they survived. And the sisters, after the war, they immigrated to Israel and to United States, and then one of them to Canada. And my grandmother, she stayed. (laughs) And then, it was the story -- and then there was '68. And during '68, they said that they feel Polish and they like to stay 14:00here, so they stayed. Of course, they lost their jobs, but they stayed. And then, in '80s, as I said, (laughs) my parents, they were there in United States, they lived there for two years, and they really had great proposition for work longer there, because my father is a great scientist -- and now he's professor of biophysics in Warsaw. But they went back. So, this pretty hard to have this kind of --

AI:Heritage.

PD:-- (sighs) heritage, yeah.

AI:It is. It's not easy, for sure.

PD:It's not easy. Yeah, it's not easy. Because now, I think, that it is something that I -- maybe I should, I don't know, keep -- or maybe not. Maybe I 15:00should the one who --

AI:Who finally will break the line and go?

PD:Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

AI:Wow. It's a tough choice, always. Wow. But Patrycja, tell me a little bit about home in which you grew up. Because I can imagine that two academics coming back from United States to gray, communistic Warsaw -- for sure, from one hand, it was extremely easy to come back, because they came back from United States; from the other hand, it wasn't easy at all.

PD:Yeah, of course. It was extremely hard for them, of course. The life here was hard. And they already known the other way of life in the United States. And they were also in this anti-communistic opposition, so they have a lot of 16:00troubles with Policja [Polish: police] (laughs) --- this police, communist police. There was also the danger of prison, but my father, he just hides, so -- hide away. So, it was really hard days for them. And of course, there was nothing in the shops. There was no -- almost no food, (laughs) only some products. So, it was really hard days. But on the other hand, they have their family here, this family which also previously decided to stay here. So, I don't know. I don't know why. I really don't know. I mean, it is something very 17:00strange about us. Maybe it is something which connected us to this place, to this space, to this soil. I don't know. But this thing is not -- for example, it's not connected, for example, with graves. Because this -- my Jewish part of family, they haven't got any graves, you know? Because there is no graves after the Holocaust. But this year, I found the graves.

AI:Where?

PD:In Łódź, in the cemetery, I found some graves. Because -- not all this period of the war -- of course, the end of the war -- so my grand-grandfather and grand-grandmother, they haven't got any grave, but for example, the brother of my grandmother and her sister, he has a grave, and his son has a grave, and 18:00his wife has a grave.

AI:What is his name?

PD:The name of son of -- I mean, his name is Lusik. So, I think it's Ludwig. And I can't remember now a Jewish name. Because they -- everybody just called him Lusik. And his son name was Isel. And we really, till this year, we didn't know that his name was Isel. One lady from the Łódź cemetery, she found his grave for us. And so, for this half a year, we know that his son name was Isel. And I think it was Isaac, maybe -- I mean, Isaac. But I'm not sure. Isaac or -- we were thinking that maybe it's Isaac and maybe it's -- hm.

AI:And what happened to your grandparents? Because they were here.

PD:Yeah. My grandmother and my grandfather. So, they were here, and they just passed away some years ago -- too early for me -- especially my grandmother. So, I think that this is one of the reason I'm so deep inside this Jewish culture, because it was kind of luck. I mean, it was something which I needed, and I haven't got it from my grandmother, because I didn't ask her, those days, and then I found it, that I haven't got any answers for my questions. So, I think 20:00it's one of the reason -- and they were also -- I mean, my father's parents, they were also really, really deep in love with each other, till the end. (laughs) Till the last days. And they met each other, after the war, in Łódź. My grandfather, he was looking for people -- I mean, in the Jewish -- Jewish society -- I mean, this -- komitet żydowski --

AI:Um-hm.

PD:Jewish Committee?

AI:Jewish Committee.

PD:-- I think. The Jewish Committee after the war was looking for people, and my grandfather was one who was working there, cooperating with them. And he met my 21:00aunt, my grandmother twin sister. She lost her husband -- I mean, she thought she lost her husband, because then she found her husband, Felix. And she was also really engaged in this looking for people. And they met each other. And he said that she is the most beautiful girl he ever seen. And my aunt said that she has husband, and she's waiting for her husband, because maybe he's alive. But she knew another person who is -- who must be such beautiful as she is, because she is her twin sister. And she introduced my grandmother to my grandfather, so (laughter) it was, like, from the first sight. (laughter) And my grandmother, 22:00she was the champion of -- world champion of bridge, playing bridge. So, she has a lot of diploma in her house -- and now it's my house, my apartment -- so now I've got these diplomas and other medals. And my grandfather, he was the Olympic champion in gymnastic, but it was before the war. And after the war, he was just -- he was training other sportsmen, young sportsmen. So (laughs) --

AI:Patrycja, do you think that bridge is something super Jewish? Because I have met many people, especially women -- I don't know about men -- but women who are 23:00involved in this kind of very successful activity.

PD:I don't know if it is connected with Jews, but I agree. (laughs) I know a lot of Jewish people -- older Jewish people, especially, who are playing or who still play bridge -- in some kind of meetings.

AI:Yeah, do you think that it's a common thing for Poland in general, or it's more typical for Jews?

PD:Maybe it's typical for eastern Jews, not only Polish, but also -- because I have also a lot of stories from my friend who is from Lithuania, and other friend who is from Russia, and they also said that their grandparents, who were Russian Jews or Lithuanian Jews, they were also playing a lot of bridge together 24:00with their friends. So --

AI:Maybe.

PD:So, yeah. But my grandparents from my mother's side, they loved playing bridge, too, so -- or maybe it is another evidence that they (laughs) -- they are Jews. (laughs)

AI:(laughs) Maybe. Okay. You got your PhD. You are very active in many circles, in many foundations, in many organizations, in many activities. And I would like to know: How did it happen that you are in this point where you are? So, give me, please, a brief overview about your education, in terms of Jewish and non-Jewish (UNCLEAR).

PD:Um-hm. I always wanted to be an artist. And I also loved biology. So, after I 25:00finished high school, I decided to try to study both. But biology came first, because of my parents. And I think it is very Jewish. They thought that it will be better for me to be high educated in something more scientific or something -- I mean, serious, not -- because art is not so serious, you know? So, I think this is very Jewish, and I've written about it in my kind of book, that I think it is very Jewish. So, they really wanted me to be a scientist, to have 26:00something serious in my life, so I started from biology. Then, I went also to other studies, in Wrocław art studies. And I finished both. Then, I also make my PhD in biology. And then, I left science -- I mean, I left being scientist, but I stayed with science, because I'm still a science and cultural journalist. So, I'm writing about science, for example, and writing -- I'm interviewing scientists, I'm writing articles about what is new in science and culture and science and politics, for example, so this is my one way. And another was art, of course, because I think it is something which could give me a kind of freedom in thinking, in feeling, in being creative. So, it was very important for me. 27:00And at my arts university, I finished artistic photography. But even those days, it was performative photography I've made -- I was making. And from this performative photography, I switched to performance, and from performance to theater, so now I'm writing a lot for theaters, and I'm writing theater performances. But I also still -- I'm still performing in the streets, I'm making artistic projects. And my third way was this social activity, and it was also something which was obvious to me -- that it is very important to change 28:00the world. And I think it is something I've learned from my house, from my parents and grandparents, from my father's side and my mother's side. And we started the MaMa Foundation, and we were very active in this area of -- for helping women, helping mothers, changing the way of thinking about motherhood, about females and women in families. And when we are thinking about these Jewish things, it was just -- it was, I think, the moment -- I realized one day, when I 29:00was thinking about my -- what I'd like to do next -- I mean, what is now important for me. When I became a mother, I felt really that it's -- the most important thing now is to -- to back to these roots, and to try to ask some question, to try to answer some question, and to try to clean this space a little for my children.

AI:Are you the one in the family who is asking for this?

PD:Now? No. But I was the first. (laughs)

AI:Do you remember the moment when you put the first question on the table?

PD:Yes, I remember this moment. And it was very hard, because my father said 30:00that he can't say anything, and he wouldn't spoke -- he wouldn't spoke with me -- speak with me, sorry. And so, I did it by myself. I was trying to search for some information in some archives. I can remember that my father asked me if I'm not afraid about what I'm doing. And I asked him if he's sure that people really don't know that we are Jews. And he said no, he's sure that they know that we are. So, I said, "So, it's not a problem." (laughs) "So, what's the problem?" And he said that I know. And of course, I knew -- of course I knew what is the 31:00kind of problem. I knew it very well, that it is something about responsibility -- their responsibility for me and my responsibility for them, because it is about this fear, this is about this fear which is a kind of our heritage. So, of course I'm -- now I'm joking a little, but of course I knew it very, very well, why he is asking me this question, why he is so -- maybe not angry, but so upset about that I started to ask these questions. But then, when I started my project -- I mean, when I started to do my performances, I started to answer a little these questions, I started to -- I think the most important was that I started 32:00telling the stories. I took these stories from some kind of nowhere, never, and these kind of spaces, and I put them to some -- being, to be outside somehow, to be in this open space. So, in this moment, after my first (UNCLEAR) of my views, of my project about my Jewish roots, my father, he came to me, and he give me tape recorder, and he said, "You know, here are some stories. I recorded them 33:00for you. Because it's impossible for me to do something about it, but I can see that you are able to do that, and I hope you will." So, this -- it was a very important moment.

AI:It was sort of like permission.

PD:Yeah. Permission, yeah. Of course. It was kind of permission.

AI:In many Polish Jewish families, there is no permission, and it's officially said that you can't really dig in your family story. Did you came across this sort of situation in your neighborhood or among your friends?

PD:Yes. Of course. Of course. This is -- a lot of different stories, and in some families, it is like in my family, that it is something unspoken, but we know, 34:00and in other families, it is something unspoken, and we can't say. And in many cases, we, the children, we really don't know. I mean, these people, they really don't know anything. So, I know a lot of families -- my friends -- who found this informations after their grandparents died, and when their parents, they just -- I don't know -- for example, they found some papers or they found some information outside, and they asked their parents about it, and their parents said that they can't say, they didn't know, it is something you shouldn't say. 35:00(laughs) So, it's a lot of this kind of histories. A lot. So, this is -- our performance "Hideout" is about it, exactly about it, about this first generation, second generation, and third generation still being in kind of hideout. And in this performance, we think that this is our turn, and we are the ones who can -- who could try to get outside this hideout.

AI:Patrycja, we have met -- me and you -- in this very special place in Wrocław, which is the TSKZ building, but actually, this is the meeting place for the Childrens of the Holocaust Association, and they really clearly remember that I was the one who was very enthusiastic, and I was, like, this wild girl, 36:00and you are the one who was a little bit step out. And because of this, our so-called spiritual mother, Mariella, she's always telling me about you, that you are the one who is always observing and thinking, and I'm the one who is always stepping in and saying, "Yeah, let's put it on the table." And she loves us both, but she prefers you, because you are the one who is more careful. And do you think that Children of the Holocaust in Poland -- I understand that they have to meet and that they need their own association, but do you think that they had a moment in the postwar history to say something about themselves, or we, and especially you, because of this project which you are doing with Paweł Passini and others, you are the first one who says something about this unspoken history?

PD:I don't think that I am first, but -- or we are the first, but I think we found a way to speak about it in this careful way, careful but also effective way. Because I think that they tried to speak sometimes -- of course, not all of them. But there was no moment for this. It wasn't -- this proper moment for these stories in the past. Because of this responsibility, I think, because of their parents, who, some of them were still alive. Because of their children, they had this responsibility for their children. And now, I think, it's other 38:00situation, because we are this third generation, and we found ourselves in so strange situation, that we are still in some kind of -- being in hiding, in hideout. And we asked the question: Why? Because we know why our grandparents -- we know that their children, this responsibility -- but why, why us? Why we just can't go out? So, to answer this question, for us and for our children, we really had to answer this question to them. And I think it's about relation -- because of this relation which is really based on this responsibility still. But I say, you know, I'm safe; you can tell me this story. And she said, "You know," 39:00-- for example, Mariella -- "you know, all my life, I couldn't say this story, and now you did something to me that -- you opened me, like, you initiate me to tell these stories, and now, now I'm telling this story -- this story about me, these other stories about my family." So, I think it is kind of feeling safe and feeling responsible for each other. And I think this is this way in "Hideout," that -- because in this performance, we build a kind of space in which everybody are invited. Because this Polish situation is very, very strange. It's very -- very Polish. (laughs) It's not like -- like -- it's something you should take like it is. So, you should think about what we can do about this specific 40:00situation in this country -- what we should do. So, we should invite people who are the ones who are victims; we should invite people who are their children, their grandchildren; but we should also invite people who are kind of guil-- who felt kind of guilty. Not because they, for example, murder somebody, but they stayed silent or they feel that they couldn't help, for example. So, it's many faces of feeling guilty. And also, we have other people who didn't know they are Jews, or people who didn't know they have some -- for example, their 41:00grandparents helped somebody. Because -- history -- Sprawiedliwi Wśród Narodów Świata [Polish: Righteous Among the Nations] --

AI:Jak co [Polish: And who]?

PD:Sprawiedliwi Wśród Narodów Świata.

AI:Ah, Righteous Among the Nations.

PD:Righteous, yeah. Because in Poland, there's -- of course there are some people who are Righteous Among the Nations, but there is also a lot of people who helped their neighbors, for example, but they couldn't tell this to other people, so they also stay in this hideout. So, we thought about a situation in which all these people could have their voices, could feel safety, and start to tell these stories. And by telling these stories, I think it's the way to go out.

AI:You know, I think that in Poland, in contemporary Poland, especially, we have a problem of acceptance.

PD:Um-hm.

AI:Acceptance of each other as --

PD:Yeah.

AI:-- as the others --

PD:Yeah.

AI:-- and acceptance of our heritage, with all of the failures which we --

PD:Yeah, exactly.

AI:-- experienced.

PD:Yeah.

AI:You also think this way, right?

PD:Yeah, I also think this way. I think that we have big problems with acceptance. And I think we were on the way to do something about it. Now I think it's a kind of problem, because of politic situation. I think it's something which started to change during this last year. And I really feel afraid about what's going on now. Because I find it is very dangerous to this progress, to this process, which started.

AI:But are you also afraid of the physical safety of your children?

PD:(sighs) Rather -- no. Not now. Not yet. But of course, as you see, I can say that -- I'm afraid that something may happen in the future. Because I really feel that something is changing now, that we were on some kind of proper way, for me -- I mean, it was right direction, and now I think it's -- it could be dangerous in, I don't know, a few years, it could be worse. But when you ask if I'm thinking -- because I'm thinking about my children, and they -- their safe-- 44:00safe. And for example, my parents, they gave me this fear, so I'm living with this fear. Of course, I'm -- I can tell that it's not like that. It's a different situation, and that's another generation -- we are third generation -- but it's not so easy to live without this fear when you have it from your parents, when you have it from your grandparents. So, it's like, kind of heritage, too.

AI:This is like inherited fear, right?

PD:Yeah.

AI:Please, tell me about your meeting with Paweł Passini. Because this -- I understand that on many levels, you understand each other very well, but the fact that you can cooperate in these art voices so well -- I was really moved 45:00when I have seen "The Hideout," also because I could hear the stories of my -- of our common friends, which I also recorded, also for this project --

PD:Um-hm.

AI:-- but in different time and --

PD:Yeah.

AI:-- space. But they said exactly the same things, because what else they could say about their lives? And I would like to ask you about your artistic, but also on the very human level, cooperation with Paweł Passini. 'Cause you are two Jewish people who are kind of out of the synagogue -- and that would be the link to the question about religion, which was my following question to this. But before we will get to this, I would like to start with -- simply with your friendship with Paweł on those many levels. You are two people, quite secular, and very academic, open-minded, thinking people, who are deeply digging in the past.

PD:Um-hm.

AI:So, first of all, how did it start?

PD:It starts from -- this is my way -- I'm talking about my way. So, when I was doing this performance views -- so I was putting little pictures --

AI:The one which is in Polish is called "Widoczki"?

PD:Yes, this is called "Widoczki," or sometimes people call this play "Secrets," "Sekret." And my project was called "Widoczki." And I was taking plaster casts from my body -- it was, like, small pieces, after this action. And I covered them with the pieces of photographs which were connected with pieces of stories -- it was in the beginning my family's stories. Then, the other stories also, 47:00Jewish stories. And I put these little pieces into the ground in places -- first in places which were connected somehow with these stories, and then also in other places. So, I started from Muranów, the Jewish district in Warsaw. I started from the very specific story of my aunt, who died here. She made suicide, but first, she killed her son and husband, and then she -- and she was a dentist, and she has poison, so she could do that. And so, I start with this story, and then I was putting these little pieces all over the Poland somehow, because I was in Wrocław, I was in Kraków, I was in Poznań, Bydgoszcz, Lublin, with this "Widoczki," and in every act of this "Widoczki," I was writing the piece of story, piece of my thinking about -- and these stories was found by 48:00one actress, Judy Turan, and she said that she just had to play in this -- she'd like to have a drama from these texts, and she'd like to play this. And she asked me if I'm working with some kind of director. And I knew Paweł Passini because we used to be friends before. Then there was the years, we just could see each other's work, but we haven't got time to just be -- just have -- provide this friendship. But we knew what we are doing in this artistic level. So, I said that maybe Paweł Passini, and she agreed. And so, I told Paweł 49:00about this story, and he was really pushed about this performance, this -- what I'm doing. And he told me his story, that he also has this story which -- which he didn't know what to do, because it was the story of his aunt, and his aunt was -- she escaped from the ghetto and was hidden by Irena Solska, the great Polish actress. And his aunt told him this story when he was a child, and she said, "So when you be a theater director, you can do something about it." But he didn't know what to do about it. So, our meeting was like the kind of -- that we both knew that we -- we just could do something together about our different stories, but in the same area, you know? About this digging in the past, as you 50:00said. So, it was our first meeting -- I mean, as artists, not as just people who know each other. And then, we started to -- but we haven't got money for "Hideout," so we started from other projects we've done together. So, it was two other things we've done before, and then we started to work on "Hideout." And it was really a very special experience to work on it. These first projects with Paweł was also very, very interesting, and we really found that we understand each other in this artistic way. But "Hideout" was more, because we could understand each other not only in artistic way; we could understand each other 51:00(laughs) in this -- family stories area, this Jewish identity area, this very special Jewish identity area, because it's -- not all Jewish identities are the same. So, it was really, really amazing work. So then, we started to work together also using these oral histories, using these testimonies -- not only testimonies from our families, from people from this part of Europe, but also then we work together in Belarus, on those stories, from those side. It was also great, a great experience to work together there with these unspoken stories. And now we've done together "Matki -- Mothers" -- in the Jewish theater in 52:00Warsaw. And it was also based on the real stories, on the stories which were told to us by -- in this case, by children who were survived by their mothers, but their first mothers, Jewish mothers, they have to send them from the ghetto, and they never seen their first mothers. So --

AI:Right, so it's like, they have mothers, but also they have the Jewish --

PD:The Jewish mothers.

AI:-- mothers. And they are the Jewish children, who are safe to the other --

PD:Yeah.

AI:-- side.

PD:Side. Yeah. And it was also -- also something which was a really great experience, because we've done it together with these children -- with these children of the Holocaust, these --

AI:The Children of the --

PD:The children of --

AI:-- Holocaust Society, right?

PD:Yeah.

AI:Wow. So, this is the way for them to express --

PD:Exactly. Yeah.

AI:-- that's what they feel.

PD:Yeah. Yeah.

AI:I think that here in Poland -- maybe in the world, but in Poland it's even more crucial, because we are here together --

PD:Um-hm.

AI:-- there is this problem of misunderstanding each other.

PD:Um-hm.

AI:Like, Jews are trying to say, but then the voices suddenly -- and it's somehow not coming out.

PD:Yes, exactly.

AI:And the Poles are shouting too loud, so eventually, there is no meeting place for us, except of the Jewish theater, which now is even closed down, so our meeting place is gone.

PD:Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. But I hope that -- because there is -- I think now in Warsaw, there is also more places where Jewish people can talk. So, this is 54:00something which is really helpful and hopeful. And I hope that the Jewish theater will be back soon. I really hope that -- it should.

AI:Well, they finished with "Mothers," which was a great premiere. We have to say this, and the world should know, that it was -- even if it's at end of the season, it was a great --

PD:Yeah.

AI:-- a great (UNCLEAR).

PD:Yeah, okay, we can say it was really -- I mean, it was really -- it got really good --

AI:Reviews, yeah.

PD:-- reviews, yeah.

AI:Yeah. Patrycja, tell me, why -- well, why -- I don't know -- I'm not sure how to ask you about this question, but I'm really curious, why you are not a member of the synagogue?

PD:Because I don't feel that this is my heritage. Because my grand-grandfather 55:00and my grand-grandmother, when they escaped from -- her husband (laughs) -- and they came to Łódź, they became kind of atheist. I'm not sure, maybe they were not exactly atheist, but they were not very religious. They were at synagogue, I think, only when there was weddings, or -- I don't know -- you know, only on some kind of special occasions, not every Saturday. So, my family heritage is different. It's not connected -- special to synagogue. It's connected very deep to Jewish culture, to many aspects of Jewish culture, but not exactly to 56:00synagogue. Which doesn't mean that I -- sometimes I like to be in the synagogue, because I'm just curious, because I just like to know something about it, you know? This is what I need sometimes, because I know that it is the part of the Jewish culture. And I like to talk to rabbis, for example -- I found it -- them very interesting, great people. Some of them, of course. But it is not my way of being in this culture. My Jewish culture is connected with Jewish literature, Jewish theater, Jewish stories, and Jewish art, Jewish -- I don't know. This is 57:00one of my aspects of my Jewish identity, but not the synagogue. Not religious.

AI:And what do you think about the Jewish traditions? Do you keep tradition? Do you keep Jewish calendar in your home?

PD:No, but we have one. (laughs) Because -- for last year, our son is now in Lauder School, so of course we are -- in a way, we are keeping Jewish calendar, because our school life -- I mean, his school life -- so our family life is connected with Jewish calendar. (laughs) So, of course it's -- we are connected 58:00to Jewish calendar, but it's not something which is very important in our family. And when you are talking about traditions -- tradition -- it's very strange and funny, because in my family, we are not very religious, so when we have some kind of occasions to be -- to family meetings, like holidays, different kind of holidays -- for example, also, we can take Easter, and, for example, in my home, there were a kind of dishes which I found -- it was about some years ago, I found that they were kind of Jewish dishes (laughs) which just were in my family, and they stayed in my family. So, we are cooking these Jewish 59:00dishes in some kind of Christian holidays -- but we are not Christians, but we are just having these holidays, because we like to meet each other in this family ground, so (laughs) -- so during these Christians holidays, we have also Jewish dishes, for example, or some kind of Jewish customs, too, with candles, for example. So, this is very funny.

AI:(laughs) So, you're (laughs) -- you're mixed.

PD:It's mixed. Like, you know, it's --

AI:Yeah. (laughs) It's like a soup where you put whatever --

PD:Yeah.

AI:-- you have in your fridge.

PD:Yeah. (laughter) A little. But you know, it's -- I've found that it is a kind of -- I mean, our family, as I'm thinking about this, this family after the war -- so these members which I really know, which are close to me -- so I think -- we built a kind of new tradition (laughs) which -- in which these strange mixed 60:00customs are very important. I love them, really.

AI:Like what?

PD:Because they are ours. They are like our individual family -- very strange customs. For example, during this Easter holidays, we are not having this holiday dinner on Sunday, like everybody, but on Saturday, like (laughs) --- it is like Shabbos a little, you know? So, very strange, very strange customs. (laughter) But ours. (laughs)

AI:But do you have anything to do with Hebrew language? Or --

PD:A little, because my son is learning Hebrew and my husband is learning Hebrew, so a little, yes. (laughs) I listen to them, and when I have to check if 61:00my son is ready -- is prepared to -- with his lessons, so I know some words, because I have to (laughs) ask him if he -- (laughs) -- if he knows these words. But only this way. And of course, I have a lot of pictures on the walls, because they are learning and they are writing these (laughs) words, so (laughs) -- on some kind of papers and put them on the walls. So, I have these -- you know, I have my -- Hebrew is everywhere, but I can't speak Hebrew. And also, of course, because I have some part of family in Israel, I -- some people in my family -- and now they became quite close to us, because after the transformation, when there were more occasions to travel -- we meet them. Maybe not every year, but 62:00every two years or every three years, so they became very close to us. And for example, my uncle is speaking Hebrew, my family in Israel is speaking Hebrew, so this is this other connection. This is the language which is in my family, but I can't speak it. (laughs)

AI:And what about Yiddish?

PD:And with Yiddish it's a different situation, because Yiddish is also the language which I feel is connected with my family from before the war. So, Yiddish is -- language which is very, very important for me. But I can't speak in Yiddish, but my husband is learning Yiddish, and I'm also working with Yiddish. I mean, I can't speak Yiddish, but Yiddish is the language in which I'm 63:00very interested, and I'm doing workshops in which we are using Yiddish words and trying to do something artistic about them. So, we are trying to get some new labels, new perspectives to some old, for example, Yiddish words. So, this is not the language I am speaking, but this is the language I am kind of working with, you know? It's like, I am interested in it, I'm working with this language, and I'm also -- really feel that it is connected with my former family, this family from before the war, with my grandparents. Of course, my grand-grandparents, they speak Yiddish, they speak also Hebrew, they speak also Russian, French, German, English, because they really knew a lot of languages. And the same is with my uncle, Arye -- he also knew about eight languages. So, 64:00he's connected somehow with his grand-grandfather. So, it wasn't only Yiddish, you know -- and of course, Polish. But it wasn't only Yiddish, this first language, but I -- maybe it is because this language was kind of -- not, of course, purged, but, you know, it's -- like, Holocaust, with -- in Holocaust, there was so many people who died, who didn't survive the Holocaust. This language also kind of -- like, being -- I don't know how to say, but -- stayed in some place in this history. And we really should do something to take this language from this place, to make this language alive again. So, I think it's -- 65:00maybe the story with the Yiddish language is kind of the story from this -- kind of the story, like -- it's quite common to this taking these hidden Jewish stories. I feel the connection between this. So, this is the other thing, why this language is so important -- I mean, emotional importance, for me.

AI:When was the first moment when you discovered Yiddish for yourself?

PD:Hm. (pauses) I'm not sure. Because of course, I was reading some books in Polish but with Yiddish words in it -- inside. (laughs) And for example, I was 66:00reading them with my grandmother and my sister when we were children. She read us Singer and she read us some stories, some other stories. Many, many, many books; she liked a lot of books. And I think that that was the first connection. So, in early childhood.

AI:Through the grandmother?

PD:Through the grandmother, but it wasn't exactly that she was speaking Jew-- Yiddish, but she was reading books for us in which there was Yiddish words.

AI:But she knew Yiddish, right?

PD:She knew Yiddish but she --

AI:She never (UNCLEAR) --

PD:-- never -- yeah.

AI:-- for you, but --

PD:Yeah, yeah.

AI:-- but --

PD:Yeah.

AI:-- technically, she could.

PD:Yeah, she could. And Hebrew, I think, also. The second connection, my main -- 67:00with Yiddish for me was, I think, when I started to -- to looking for these hidden stories, I think.

AI:And when was that?

PD:It was about ten years ago -- maybe even not, maybe nine years ago. And of course, it wasn't like -- like, the huge lack -- I mean, between this childhood and this period, but -- of course, also, in Jewish theater -- it was also -- it was another stories which I really do have wet eyes when I'm thinking about that 68:00-- my grandmother, she was taking me and my sister to Jewish theater, and of course, "Fiddler on the Roof" was one of our favorite. (laughs) So --

AI:Here, in Warsaw?

PD:Yeah. So, for example, when -- about two or three years ago, somebody was laughing that this "Fiddler on the Roof" is like -- like, it was -- this twenty or thirty or forty years ago, it's always the same in this theater, and I said, Oh, so I should (laughs) go there, because it is something -- such important for me, because it is so emotional, connected with my childhood. (laughs)

AI:Did you play it in Yiddish back then?

PD:Yes. "Fiddler on the Roof," they were playing in Polish with Yiddish words. But they have also a Yiddish version, I think. But these performances I remember 69:00from my childhood was Polish with Yiddish words and Yiddish songs.

AI:Of course. Wow. (laughter) What a memory! (laughter)

PD:Yeah.

AI:From this place, from this time.

PD:Yeah. (laughs)

AI:That's something very special, Patrycja. That's something what I'm a little bit jealous, because I don't have this experience, coming from this little town. So, to me, listening about life in Warsaw, it's always a big discovery, and just, like, opening my eyes, and it's like, Oh, that was the possibility! (laughter)

PD:Yes, it was very strange, because it was the possibility -- because of not speaking about this Jewish -- that we are Jews and everything, so it was like, we were going to some special place, this Jewish theater, but we couldn't took 70:00this as special place. It was very strange. And the other strange thing about this strange, Jewish, speaking, not-speaking identity was that in my house, there was a lot, a lot of Jewish books. And there was a lot of books about Jews in English -- in Yiddish, I don't think so, but in Hebrew, because people from Israel, they send it -- make it to my father. But in English, there was a lot, in Polish -- a lot, a lot of Jewish books -- Jewish authors' books, and books about Jews. And because of this speaking, not-speaking, I never -- really, I never think that it is something strange or -- you know, I have this feeling that it is -- hm, something important, maybe, but on the other hand, it was 71:00something I never asked, for example. So, it's these strange little things, which I put together when I started to work with these stories. So, this is ten years ago, nine years ago.

AI:Right. What else did you do? You did "The Hideout," "Matki," and you do -- and one more thing, right?

PD:"Dziady. Twierdza Brześć [Grandfather. Brest Fortress]" -- so it was based on Mickiewicz, but it was really connected with the stories from Brest. And "Wanda" also -- that was our first performance we've done together -- with Passini.

AI:With Passini. To me, it's totally magical, because "Wanda" is working with me recently for the last few months. I can't get out of this story of the very 72:00first Polish queen. And the leader -- the leadership woman, which is a lit-- not a little bit, it is completely forgotten, and we are not getting any knowledge about her here. And then, you are bringing her up.

PD:Yeah. Like these hidden stories also. (laughs)

AI:Yeah. I would like to ask you about your way of becoming a feminist activist. In Poland, it's not so easy, because we don't have -- well, we are the first generation of girls who are getting some tutorial from abroad, so it's easier, because due to the open gates, due to the fact that now finally we can travel, we can study at other universities, we can learn in English because we have WiFi. But you didn't have really these mentors, right?

PD:Yeah, in the beginning, it was very hard. We started with this feminist 73:00activist, like you said. It was -- I think -- the situation when we started with MaMa Foundation, it was the time when it was really -- after '90s, there was a time that was some kind of conscious about that women should work, but there was still no conscious about how they can manage this work with their families, with being mothers, for example. And so, there was one kind of narration about being free women outside the family, in the work or in the job market or something like that -- in the public, whether you are not the mother. But there was no 74:00narration about being mother in some kinds of different way than this, which was taught by the Church -- the Catholic Church, of course. And this right side of politics, so it was very conservative -- thinking about being mother, about what does it mean to be mother, about families. So, that was something which we really found that it's missing in our public space, and we thought that it is something we should put in this public space and bring it back a little, because something important for us, for women, for mothers. And it was many great years of this activity, for mothers and for women. And I think a lot of things changed 75:00during these ten years -- this was also ten years -- ten years in Poland. Because I really do think that -- now, maybe, it's -- there are other problems, but these problems has changed during this time, because there was more consciousness about this other thinking about motherhood, this other thinking of families, this other thinking about children, for example. So, I think it was also part of great work. For example, the problem which arose after some years was that these mothers started to be in this public life, and it made people 76:00aggressive for the situation, because the mothers wasn't really thought to be connected with the public life. So, it was very strange, because we knew that people -- it's not this way, that women are not connected, because this world, this modern world, is -- say, Okay, women could go to the public life, could be politics, and so on, but not mothers, because mothers are really connected with family, with house, with this private life. So, mothers, which try to go out and try to be politics, try to be social workers, try to be someone important, great artist and so on, they found a kind of wall. So, it was very interesting. It was another step we tried to -- step. (laughs)

AI:And in a way, succeeded. There are more --

PD:In a way, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Of course. I think in this level of thinking about it, in this consciousness, we've made great progress. But of course, it's still a lot -- a lot of things to be done. (laughs)

AI:Of course. We need these sort of activists in every single city and town --

PD:Yeah, exactly. (laughs)

AI:-- and then we'll have our problems solved. (laughs) But the positive message is that we have still a lot of work to do.

PD:Yeah. (laughs)

AI:Which means that we won't be bored. (laughs)

PD:Exactly. (laughs)

AI:Do you think that it's a Jewish thing to be so active in this discussion about mother slash child slash family life slash social activities?

PD:I don't think that it is only Jewish kind of thinking in this kind of area, but of course Jewish culture is somehow connected with this, because of Jewish thinking about families, of Jewish thinking about children and other -- I mean, parents and children, other generations. So, I think maybe this way, it is connected. Maybe it is that my heritage somehow was one of the things which pushed me to be active and to think about being active in this area, but I am not so sure. I really like to think that it is something which is Jewish, but it 79:00is also something which is quite wider and connected with also other groups, other way of thinking, other cultures, and it could be mixed together and could work together. So, I'm not the one who'd like to put everything to, because it is Jewish. Okay, I'm from this strange kind of Jewish identity, I have this strange kind of Jewish identity, and I'm doing what I'm doing, but I don't like to think that it is only something which is connected with my identity. It's connected with many other things, which also is mixed in my identity.

AI:Right. I would like to think this way, too, because that (laughter) -- that 80:00gives me permission to be activist in what I am doing --

PD:Yeah, of course. (laughter) Of course.

AI:(laughs) Patrycja, we are nearing to the end of our interview, because we are nearing to the end of our time, but I would like to ask you: What is your favorite Yiddish word?

PD:My favorite Yiddish word? (laughs)

AI:Or song or phrase.

PD:My favorite Yiddish song is "Oyfn veg [Along the road]," because of many things. Because it is so connected with mothers and children. Because it is so touching. We use it also in "Hideout," so I could listen to this song -- of 81:00course, our version, but listen to this lullaby every time we played this performance, so it is something which also is important. It's somehow connected with these telling the stories. So, maybe this is something which -- but if you asked me tomorrow, maybe I say something different, of course. I think there is more special words or special lullabies or special songs which I found -- I find important for me. But maybe for today, it's this. (laughs)

AI:"Oyfn veg." Sure. And Itzik Manger. And my last question is about an advice. 82:00Would you like to share with our audience, with the future generations, maybe with the people who watch our conversation, a word of wisdom coming from your art? And by this, I understand that you became an artist, you became a writer, author, a person who is having an important voice, and you understand the meaning of this voice. What would you say to the people who would like to get into your position, who would like to take your space in the future?

PD:(laughs) Maybe that you should listen to other people, listen to them very 83:00carefully, very deep and active way of listening to them. And I think when listening to the people, you can make relation. And I think this kind of art and this kind of thinking about word is very deeply connected with relation. I think relation with other people is the most important.

AI:A sheynem dank [Thank you very much], Patrycja. Thank you very much on behalf of Wexler's Oral History Project at the Yiddish Book Center, and moreover, thank you from my own side. Thank you for your time. Thank you for our conversation here in the front of the camera, but also for our very private connection.

[END OF INTERVIEW]