HENRI OPPENHEIM ORAL HISTORY

CHRISTA WHITNEY: This is Christa Whitney, and today is August 18th, 2016. I am here in Montreal with Henri Oppenheim. We are going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Do I have your permission to record?

HENRI OPPENHEIM: Yes.

CW:Thanks.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

CW:Just tell me whatever you want to tell me about your family.

HO:Oh, that's good. I'm going to tell you whatever I want. So, my mother came from the south of France -- which, at that time, was sometimes Italy, sometimes France, because the borders were changing a lot. And on my dad's side, they're from Poland. And my dad was born in the Soviet Union during the war, because 1:00their parents escaped Poland. And so, he was born in '41. And after the war, they managed to go back to Poland, where, of course, everybody was dead. I mean, the family. And then, they left to south of France, where they already had an aunt. And so, they started a new life in France, and then came to Paris and became real Parisians, I would say.

CW:Are there any particular family stories that have been passed down?

HO:Well, my grandmother, when she got old and she stopped working as a dentist, she started writing books. And the first book she wrote was about the train journey from eastern Poland to Siberia -- Kazakhstan, actually. She was pregnant, so this was in '41. And so this story, of course, became a big thing 2:00in the family. We knew that, but in my family, they really never talked about things very clearly. And you know, some Jewish families really talk a lot about what happened, and some really don't. In my family, they just were trying to build a new life and not look backwards, because probably what was backwards was too hard to cope with.

CW:What was your grandmother's name?

HO:Franka -- (pronounced with a French accent) Franka -- Franke -- Eybushitz. I think Eybushitz, yeah. She was from Lodz -- Łodz. But a lot of what was carried by the family and given to us was really the food, the culture, the attitude towards life -- not really precise stories. Because they were too painful, I guess.

CW:What language was the book in?

HO:It was in French. Poor French, I would say.

CW:And can you tell me a little bit about the home that you grew up in?

HO:So, I grew up in Paris. I would say -- I mean, it's hard to describe in three words, but to make it very simple, it was a -- assimilated, I would say partly Jewish, left-wing, intellectual, Parisian family, even though none of them were Parisians. But I think they adopted the way of life. And they were university teachers, so there was a lot of pressure about being really good in school -- and, I mean, some very Jewish values. I would say they were intellectuals, so les choses matérielles -- material things -- objects didn't really matter a 4:00lot. It was more about ideas and political views. And it was pretty intense.

CW:What did your actual home look like?

HO:The apartment, you mean?

CW:Yeah.

HO:It was actually quite a big apartment, but I would say it was pretty -- I was gonna say a bad word -- it didn't look great, because they didn't really care about the furniture. And I remember we got a washing machine really, really late. I mean, after everybody had one. It was not a great place. It was a bit dark. Somehow, it was a rich family, because it was not a small apartment in Paris, but it didn't look like anything really exciting.

CW:What neighborhood was it?

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

HO:We were stuck between the fifth arrondissement and -- I don't know what "arrondissement" is in English -- but the cinquième arrondissement [fifth district] and the thirteenth, which was more popular. We were downhill -- I mean, on top of the fifth, you have the Panthéon, Lycée Henri-IV [Henry IV High School], all of those great and famous -- Luxembourg -- things where, I mean, it's very expensive. But downhill -- you take the Rue Mouffetard, which is very famous -- and downhill, it's nothing special. And then you go uphill to the treizième -- thirteenth. And then you have the Chinese district of Paris. And we were somewhere stuck between those wards. So, I was attending high school with a very mixed population. Like, some really poor people from south of Paris 6:00-- at that time, there were still poor people in Paris -- and some more from the richer. It was a very interesting blend of populations. I think my parents did that on purpose. They wanted me -- us -- to be in a socially diverse population. Then, later, we went to those big lycées in Paris where it was less mixed. But the first, I would say, fifteen years of my life were more -- voilà.

CW:What felt Jewish about your upbringing?

HO:Well, my dad's mother felt extremely Jewish. And she was a very strong character with a very strong history. And we were highly influenced by her. She 7:00was really the godfather of the family. Every family reunion would be at her place, and there would be Jewish food, Polish food, and jokes, and it was -- I mean, she really brought with her the Polish Jewish atmosphere that she managed to transmit in a very efficient way to everybody. And we're very attached to this heritage. Even though we didn't know all the details, but we could feel -- it was very attractive for kids like us. And it was a crazy environment. Everybody would, like, discuss, shout, and argue, and laugh. Yeah, it was very Jewish and a little bit décadant or crazy, I could say. Yeah.

CW:So, what was the -- some examples of the food that you grew up with?

HO:So, the interesting thing is that it was very Jewish, but we never really knew what was Jewish, what was Polish. And there was no -- basically, I can't really answer your questions, because we didn't name things. We were just -- we were living the -- it was completely natural, and we didn't even notice that it was Jewish. But les boulettes -- the meatballs -- were, like, mythiques. Kreplech [Meat-filled dumplings], also. But -- I mean, carpe farcie -- what is "carpe farcie" in English? Fish -- gefilte fish. But we were not aware of that. We were just like, fish in the water, not knowing that we're in the water.

CW:And what was -- if you can say a little bit more about what was attractive 9:00about your grandmother and her culture -- for you, growing up?

HO:(pause) Wow. Because it's so obvious that it's hard to answer this. I never wonder. I mean, I would probably say clichés. But it was warm. It gave a real heavy sense of belonging, of something like this. And it comes from somewhere. And you're part of a vertical thread. It was tasty, of course. And we were very 10:00free to -- I mean, it was probably just strong and warm. Enveloppant [enveloping]. I imagine it gave us some foundations. I mean, it was really -- like, we knew that we were coming from somewhere, and there was -- she had this very strong sense of -- Jewish sense of transmission. Even though she didn't talk about all the hard things in the -- and also, something that -- we were a tiny family. I mean, because both on my mother's side and dad's side, it was a very small family. So, it gave the impression that the family was huge somehow.

CW:What were the languages you heard growing up?

HO:Polish and French. That's it.

CW:When would you hear Polish?

HO:My grandmother, my dad, and his sister were speaking Polish together. And they were talking a lot. (laughs) So, we heard a lot of Polish.

CW:Did you understand? Did you learn any?

HO:No. Not at all. But my parents decided that we should learn Russian in school. So, when my sister and I were, like, ten probably, we started learning Russian at school. And we did that for eight years, probably -- three hours a week, eight years. But my grandmother had very mixed feelings about Poland. And actually, I think -- I suspect that she had some kind of love affair with Stalin 12:00-- I mean, virtual. Because Stalin basically saved their life. And when Poland -- everybody was killed. And I felt she was more attached to the Russian culture. Like Bulat Okudzhava, a Russian singer -- she was a huge fan. But I never heard any Polish music and I never really heard good things about Poland. So, I don't think she wanted us to understand Polish, really. It was just the language they were speaking, but there was no -- nothing from the heart. I think she was resentful, probably.

CW:Was politics a part of what people were talking about growing up?

HO:Actually, on this side of the family, not a lot. Not much. The other side was 13:00more really radical -- radically left-wing. On this side, they were left-wing, but not like, radically. I think my grandmother spent more time trying to survive and make a living and feed her kids after what happened. And in Poland, apparently, they were quite wealthy people, so I don't know if politics were a big issue. No, politics came more from the other side.

CW:What were the occupations in the family?

HO:You mean jobs?

CW:Yeah.

HO:Doctors. (laughs) Doctors and scientists, basically. On my mother's side, 14:00there were teachers. And on my dad's side, my grandmother was a dentist. My grandfather, that I didn't mention because I never met him, he died in Nice in '64, I think, playing tennis. Stupid. Actually, I don't know exactly what he was. I know he opened in Nice a clothes shop --

CW:Clothing store?

HO:Clothing store. Thanks. But apart from that, she was a dentist, and my dad was a math teacher, and my aunt was a gynécologue. You know what it is -- gynécologue?

CW:Gynecologist?

HO:Yeah. Thanks. Yeah. So, it was pretty typical Jewish jobs.

CW:What was the music that you were exposed to growing up?

HO:I would say the Beatles, Simon and Garfunkel, some -- actually, some Israeli music that I couldn't -- I don't remember. The Parvarims, maybe -- the Parvarims. Then, later, Pink Floyd's -- oh, a lot of French songs, of course. French songs, like Barbara, Brassens, Jacques Brel a little bit less. Jacques Brel was a bit too -- for my parents. Too bleh -- guts. But Brassens was -- I mean, and Barbara, I would say, were the -- and actually, some Québécois music, too, like Gilles Vigneault. My dad used to love Pete Seeger and people like that. But, I mean, not particularly Jewish. Well, Simon and Garfunkel, maybe.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

CW:You said you always were interested in music?

HO:Yeah. I got a piano when I was very young, and I would play for -- I mean, the legend says that I would play for hours. My parents tried to hire a teacher -- and actually, they did, but it never really worked, because I didn't really want to learn anything. I think I had a lot of pressure in school when I grew up, and probably I had too much pressure to be able to take more pressure for musical instruments -- or maybe it was my thing, and I didn't want to have any pressure. So, I managed to learn the guitar and the drums and the piano by myself for the most part. Which I think is great, but when you become a professional musician, you regret, of course, because there are tools that you need to be a professional musician. So, I had to find my own path with this informal musical education. So, basically, I had a good ear. There's a legend in 17:00the family that my granddad that I never knew would go to the movie theater, and then back home would play anything he heard by ear, which is basically exactly what I could do. So, who can tell where I got it -- probably I just heard that and -- because I don't believe in genius. So, music was easy for me, and that's one of the reasons I didn't want to practice scales and all those things -- which, once again, I regretted later in my life. So, I played all kinds of instruments. I remember once they wanted me to study the clarinet. And I remember trying to get a sound -- I was probably ten years old, and I was small. So, I remember pushing on the instrument and really hurting my lungs almost -- like, I could feel it was so demanding. That's the memories I have from the 18:00clarinet. So, piano is easier.

CW:Did you have any particular mentors in music? If not teachers, but mentors?

HO:No, no. As I said, I was just creating my own thing. I think it was probably a way for me to express myself. And I didn't want, basically, any interference. So, not really.

CW:How did you get into Jewish music?

HO:So, my first answer would be by surprise. So, I moved to Montreal in '97. I 19:00had a Ph.D. in math and I came here for a postdoc. And for years and years, I had been struggling with the idea of stopping mathematics -- of quitting mathematics and becoming a musician. But when you're good in math in France, there's basically -- and you don't have a super strong will -- force de caractère -- you just go like a horse, you know? You jump like that, because you're good, and your parents, your friends, the teachers, everybody -- they all come together to say, You like music, you can play music on the side, but you know what? Get a job and find a job. So, that's basically what I did. And when I came to Montreal, I met people who said, If you don't like math and you want to be a musician, be a musician. And it's a way of thinking that is completely, 20:00completely foreign to, I think -- I would say Europeans. I suspect it's a general thing in all countries. I'm making this story long --

CW:That's fine.

HO:Okay. So, I came to Montreal. And by coming to Montreal, when my family, my grandparents, were starting to get old -- it's interesting that when I was very close to them, I didn't feel any need to be Jewish or to have more Jewish activities. I left, and six thousand kilometers from them, I suddenly -- it triggered something, and I felt I was missing something or losing something or something was going away. And that was precious. And so, I just spread the word in my environment that I would like to play klezmer. I met klezmer thanks to my 21:00dad, actually, who sent me a recording from Giora Feidman -- an old one from the '70s where he plays his clarinet, guitar, and double bass. That's it. And it's brilliant. It's absolutely brilliant. It's one of his first recordings, I think. And I fell in love. And then, I met a band here in Montreal. They were rehearsing in the garage and playing a few minor gigs. But they had a lot -- I mean, big potential. And I saw that, and then I jumped. And at that time, I was studying music at McGill, so I was really exciting to write arrangements. So, I wrote lots of arrangements for the band. And at that time, I was playing the accordion. And at that time, too, in Montreal, klezmer was really in demand. I became the manager of the band and musician-arranger, and my phone would ring all the time. I mean, people wanted to hire us. Because that was really -- the 22:00klezmer revival happened in Montreal in the late '90s and beginning of this century, and we were there exactly at the right moment. And then, the reason why I did that and I didn't stop doing that is, I think -- I've been looking for a smart answer to this question and never found it, but the stupid answer, which is, I think, the answer, is that it felt familiar and like home. It made sense. So, it's like reconnecting with something that was deep inside me. But when I read books about klezmer, that's what people say. I know if you ask Frank London why he's so big on klezmer, he would say, I met klezmer and it was like me. I'll ask him.

CW:Can you say more about your reaction to hearing klezmer music the first time?

HO:More than it was (laughs) like home? Cozy and -- more than that? Wow. Well, it's hard to tell at that time, exactly, because after all those years working on Jewish music, I understood better, maybe, what attracts me. Well, another cliché is that it's sad and happy at the same time, and that's exactly me. And it had two sides -- or, I would say, three, four sides. So, you play fast songs in minor, or you play, you know --and so on. There's something in Jewish music that is -- it is something and it's something else at the same time. It's always 24:00not clear what it is. And I couldn't say that about some other traditional styles -- non-Jewish -- or maybe because they don't touch me that much, but I feel that it's what it is. And klezmer -- maybe because of the history, maybe because of what I know, maybe because of my own history I project -- I really see something, like, not clear. You think it's this, but actually, if you look carefully, you see that it's that. And it's also the musical expression of a very rich culture that somehow, I guess, I can feel in the music.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

CW:Have there been any particular projects within the Jewish music you've been proud of?

HO:You mean apart from mine? (laughs)

CW:No, no -- in yours.

HO:(laughs) Oh, in mine.

CW:Among yours. Yeah.

HO:Well, if I say I'm not proud of it, everything that I've done -- it's like -- some people could be offended. (laughs)

CW:Well, just pick one example, then. Your favorite.

HO:Well, what I'm doing now, actually, is -- I'm very proud of my recent album. And I would say I was a little bit less proud -- if we'll really say about being proud -- that you feel that it's right -- sometimes you do things, you love it, you push, you work a lot, but somewhere, you go, It's good; it's what I want to do now, and I'm gonna do it a hundred percent. But even when you do it -- or doing it, it's like, there's something that goes, Okay, I have -- it's not that deep. Maybe it's not that deep. And I'm, I guess, a deep person -- whatever it means. And the party aspect of Jewish music is not my favorite, even though I play weddings and that. So, what I'm doing now, setting Yiddish poems to music, 26:00just feels completely right and completely in the thread -- probably more than rearranging traditional klezmer music or even composing some pieces in the style. Because as an artist, I question the -- I mean, I always question everything, but what does it mean to rearrange old things -- or to even just find old things and play them again? I mean, it's very important in the sense that we have to preserve the past. But as a composer, as a creative artist, it was always a question that I had. And now, my recent projects are more creative. So, I guess I'm proud when I create. Which doesn't mean what I create is good, I don't know. But at least it's new and it makes sense as an artist.

CW:So, can you explain a little bit about the most recent project?

HO:Yeah. Actually, it started five years ago. It's a very long cycle and it's not finished. So, the album came out this year. Now, the reason I do things usually is not clear to me, and afterwards, sometimes, I understand. But not always. I did klezmer for, I would say, ten years, and then I got a little bit -- I felt I had to do something maybe deeper. And the Yiddish part of Jewish music, in my opinion, is huge. Klezmer is big, but if you add the Yiddish songs, theater, it becomes huge. But it requires to be able to speak Yiddish or to 28:00understand Yiddish. So, it's another step. And I was looking for something deeper than klezmer. I was actually maybe a little bit resentful towards some people who play klezmer, that they don't have a clue what -- I mean, some of them don't -- they play great, but they don't really have a clue about Yiddish culture. And klezmer without Yiddish, it doesn't really make sense. It comes from Yiddish-speaking musicians. So, can you really play klezmer without having a strong connection with Yiddish? I guess you can. But in my case, I felt I had to investigate deeper, so I started learning Yiddish by myself.

CW:How?

HO:With books. With books. Yeah. It was great. I mean, it reminded me of those 29:00Russian -- Soviet Union -- Russian books that I had when I was a kid. So old-fashioned, you know? I never know how to pronounce this name -- Wein--

CW:Weinreich.

HO:Okay. Because there is a French way. So, I basically went through the book, and it took me probably a year. Every night, I would practice Yiddish with the book. Which took me to a level -- I mean, I cannot speak Yiddish, and I don't want to speak Yiddish, but I can understand. I read and I understand now. Which was enough to -- in my opinion -- to be able to read poems. And I don't remember exactly how this idea came. I remember my singer at that time, Michelle Heisler, from Montreal -- she's an actress, and she was very involved in the Yiddish theater. She was the singer in my band, because I didn't sing at that time. So, 30:00a klezmer band -- we had a klezmer band with drums and electric bass that was a little bit heavy. That was my approach at that time. So, I think she introduced me to Chava Rosenfarb.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

HO:I think she introduced me to Chava Rosenfarb, who was a poet from Montreal -- I mean, from Lodz, actually -- Łodz. So, I asked my friend Rivka Augenfeld, who's a great -- I wouldn't say she's a Yiddishist, but she speaks Yiddish fluently, and she's very devoted to the cause in Montreal. And I asked for her to translate, and so we went through poems together. And I think I was very lucky that the first Yiddish poet I met was -- poetry I met -- was Chava Rosenfarb. Because her poetry, I think -- not only she comes from Lodz, which is where my family comes from, which is a coincidence -- but her poetry is very sensual, sometimes even, I would say, sexual, if you read between the lines. And 31:00so, she wrote a lot about the Holocaust, because she spent -- I don't know, I mean, she was in the Lodz Ghetto and in Auschwitz, probably. But she wrote a lot of songs. A lot of poems. I mean, I said "songs" now because I -- poems. And something very deep. I don't know, something very, like, charnel [carnal]. I don't know what "charnel" is in English, but -- sensual. And then, I decided to set her poetry to music. And somebody came -- actually, I contacted Pierre Anctil, who's a big Yiddish specialist, I would say, in Quebec in the last thirty years. He's not the only one, but he's really devoted to Yiddish. And he's a huge fan of Yud Yud Segal. And he said, "That's great, but she's not the 32:00only one." Because for me, she was the only one. And then, he introduced me to those -- I think I have seven poets now on my projects -- like Melech Ravitch, Ida Maze, Yud Yud Segal, Rosenfarb, Rokhl Korn, Gottlieb -- and I'm missing one. Sorry. So, basically, with my friend Rivka, we went through many, many, many poems. And she was translating for me, because at that time, I couldn't really -- I was not fluent enough. And then, I got a grant. I applied for a grant at the Quebec government, and they gave me money, and I was shocked, because, Okay, it means this project maybe is interesting, even for Quebec. Because as you probably know, here in Montreal, the Jewish community is Anglophone. I mean, the 33:00Ashkenazic community is Anglophone. For a historical reason that people actually don't know usually, but it's because they were rejected from the Catholic schools when they came -- Francophone Catholic. It's important, because people have prejudice with the Jews, and Francophones have prejudice, because they're all Anglophones and they don't know why. Actually, you may know that, but you know more than --

CW:(laughs)

HO:So, I had those poems, and my plan was to write music. So, I was like, Okay, those poems are, like, between a hundred years old and, I would say, fifty years old -- in Yiddish. Should I try and compose music in the Yiddish style -- like, piano and voice? And I could have tried this, because, you know, Barbara, 34:00Brassens -- my musical roots are really, like, songs. And for some reason, I decided not to do that. I decided I would do anything, without any plan. Whatever comes. Which, in a way, is a little bit pretentious. Maybe I had reached a level of confidence at that time as a composer, even though I never really composed songs before. So, I just -- I would read the poems and the piano or the guitar and just whatever comes, record it, and threw away most of it. And I was like, Okay, I'll do it with no pressure, and we'll see. And then, I will sit and try and understand what I've done. And if it's not good, too bad. It's 35:00not good. If it's good, I like it -- great. And of course, the good thing is, I liked it. (laughs) (makes "whew" sound) But because I had no plan -- I had no artistic vision. Really, I didn't have a conscious artistic vision when I started that. It was scary, and it was a long process. Some songs were really, like, piano and voice, and some were, like, heavy rock. So, it didn't really make sense. And I really -- I have been struggling with this --

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

CW:You were struggling with what? The different -- each song came out as --

HO:Yeah. And what it should be -- should it be something? Or maybe we don't care, and it's gonna be what it is, which is -- once again, it's a little a bit pretentious from an artist to go like, I'm gonna do whatever comes. But the fact is that when you create, it's still the same person creating, so it can be 36:00really, completely explosé [exploded] or -- there's a coherence. There must be a coherence somewhere. But sometimes, it's hard to find it. But my question was, What should a new Yiddish album sound like? And I still have no clue. I mean, I love albums that sound really very coherent. Cohesive? Coherent?

CW:Either way. Yeah.

HO:And most of them sound -- because it's a commercial risk if you do it, if you don't have a very precise direction. But I don't know exactly why I didn't -- I chose not to have a -- and when, finally, I recorded this album, we had the same question with the producer. I had probably fifteen songs or twenty songs. We needed thirteen. So, are we going to try and make it sound coherent? Which could 37:00have been a real challenge. Or, we don't care. And we chose to do it: to take each song and try and make it sound right, not make the fifteen songs or thirteen songs sound the same. I don't know if I lost you. I lost myself.

CW:No, no. That's great. I want to go back to the language a little bit. What was it like -- what was the experience of -- once you started to understand a little Yiddish?

HO:(pause) I think I felt like I was opening a box of marvelous things, or I was 38:00entering a world of words. I'm a word person. I mean, I love words, even though I -- for now, I don't write my own words, but -- actually, I'm obsessed with words. And poetry is -- I'm a black-and-white TV person. I don't know if it means anything to you, but I will explain. I like when I'm not given everything. Black-and-white, you don't have the color. But I'm more a radio person -- I like when I don't have the image. So, if you push this further, I love poetry. And I 39:00discovered with this project that I love poetry. I love the absence of most of the message. I mean, you don't know what it means. And I'm sorry, I'm not answering your question --

CW:No, that's fine.

HO:I won't say I can read fluently Yiddish, but I love the logic of the language, how the grammar -- how they kind of twist everything. It sounds -- it's a little bit like Russian, somehow. But I really felt like I understood better my ancestors and (pause) -- well, I don't have a lot to say about -- except clichés, that when you start understanding a language, you understand the soul. I mean, words, expressions, concepts -- they say so much about the 40:00approach of the reality. I mean, I'm always amazed with French and with English or Russian and now Yiddish, how some words don't exist -- exist in one language and not in another one. And how the -- like in Russian, the verb is at the end of the sentence, which makes -- I don't know, I'm sure it creates a different approach or a different way of -- you need to listen to the phrase until it finishes to understand it. Which -- in French, people tend to finish phrases -- sentences? I mean, if you listen to me in French, you're gonna finish my sentence before I finish it, because the verb is at the beginning, noun and verb. And in Yiddish sometimes, it's like -- maybe I love those languages where you have to listen until the end before you understand. You have to concentrate 41:00maybe more -- maybe it's -- people listen to each other better in Yiddish. I don't know. I'm just making it up.

CW:(laughs) What are your thoughts on the idea of cultural revival?

HO:My answer would be a question mark. That's my thoughts. At the same time, I think it has to be done. By "cultural revival," you mean -- it's a concept that maybe I'm not completely familiar with. You mean, listening to old recordings or old things and preserving them? Or reinventing them?

CW:I guess it could be either, in a way. Maybe you can take one and then the other?

HO:Yeah. Well, I'm a huge fan of history. I mean, I think people should know their history. And at the same time, I hate history, because if you know too much history, you can't -- the pressure is too big, because you're nothing. What I love about northern America is that there's less history than Europe, but people are more free. It's a cliché. I love clichés -- I will say "cliché" fifteen times in this interview. I love them, because most of the time, they're completely right. But North America is more free because there is less history. At the same time, because there is less history, maybe -- well, you know what I mean. History is very important. But I think it's very important to know it, but then to forget. If you don't forget -- like, in France, we can't really forget 43:00history, because we're constantly reminded that we have a great history. Victor Hugo, la Tour Eiffel -- I mean, how can people really create something when you walk in the street and you see the Panthéon, Notre-Dame. My opinion is that actually, Paris is a very stressful city for creators, for artists. I guess there's great art in Paris, but I don't know how to get rid of the Tour Eiffel. Like, you're nothing. You will never do something that even like -- you know? When you see Notre-Dame, it's like, You're nothing.

CW:(laughs)

HO:(laughs) So, that's one of the reasons I'm happy to be here, too, because you're freer -- more free? -- to create. Yeah. At the same time, I have mixed feelings about every subject -- it's very important. And especially as a Holocaust -- un descendant de [a descendent of] -- Holocaust survivor, if you 44:00forget what happened -- and not only the Holocaust, but -- if you don't learn from history, I mean, it doesn't make sense. But I can see people don't learn from history.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

CW:Did you want to finish that thought or can I ask a new question?

HO:I didn't have a thought.

CW:Okay.

HO:I didn't have a single thought.

CW:(laughs)

HO:No, you asked me -- oh, the revival?

CW:Mm-hm.

HO:If I can say something clear, yes. (pause) No, I think, of course, it's important. History is important. And especially Yiddish, which is getting completely lost. And there are treasures, just by opening those poetry books, that nobody knows about. How can people ignore it? And even people who love 45:00poetry probably completely ignore it. So, it's not only Yiddish, it's about all those forms of art that are disappearing. I mean, I've been doing klezmer and Yiddish for like, fifteen years, so it's important. But now the question is, should it be preservation -- preserve old things? Yes. But also, the Klezmatics -- I'm a big fan of the Klezmatics, who try to bring it somewhere else. And where am I as an artist there? It's very hard to give an answer. But I know some people that spend their entire life preserving the past. And it's completely valid.

CW:From your perspective, why was the klezmer revival so popular -- why did it come about here in the '90s? Do you have a sense of that, why it became so popular at that time?

HO:Well, an easy answer is that it was filling a gap, or it was bringing something new. Even though it was old, but there was something unique in this music. Which, in my opinion, with klezmer, it's that it's happy music, so everybody can relate to up-tempo, happy songs, but at the same time, what it brings that is unique is the sadness that it contains. I'm not sure everybody understood that. Maybe you have to have a knowledge of the history to really understand the sadness. I mean, another thing is that from the melodic side, it's super strong. I mean, compared with some other festive -- we call "festif" -- festive? Happy -- happy music? Dance music? There's a special care given to 47:00melodies in klezmer music that is, I think, very unique. So, I would say I could quote ten pieces, or maybe twenty, with really strong melodies. And another idea that I have, which is probably -- I don't know if it's right or wrong, but because so many famous classical -- I mean, musicians, basically, in the Western music are Jewish, I wonder to what extent they were influenced by klezmer. And in this sense, klezmer would carry some kind of universal musical, rhythmic character that maybe we're used to by listening to Perlman or Simon and Garfunkel or all those -- Bob Dylan. So, I'm really not sure, but I feel there's something universal in klezmer music that could explain why it was so successful.

CW:What is the connection for you between your work professionally and your own identity, sense of self?

HO:Once again, somehow, it's filling a gap. Because my Jewish identity was not, I think, strong enough when I grew up. And I'm still trying to catch up. And it's filling this need to be authentic, to understand my roots. And maybe I feel that I was not even part of this -- not active enough in this thread -- transmission -- and maybe I owe it to my ancestors, to my grandmother, who had 49:00to fight so -- because I was born in a very privileged environment. I mean, Paris in the late '60s. No war, no -- I mean, somehow, maybe, I feel guilty -- that I have to do something to be -- I'm sorry, in English, it's a bit difficult at the moment to carry those --

CW:You can say it also in French. It's okay.

HO:In French, I would say that -- de faire une partie de mon [to do a part of my] -- un devoir de transmission et de combat [a duty of transmission and fighting], d'engagement -- commitment -- pour une histoire [for a story] where I'm only one of the elements in the wrong story. Like, everything I own, I want to give to my kids. Like, I got so much from the previous generation, but they 50:00had to fight very hard to earn it, where I didn't really have to fight. I was born -- like I said. So, would you call this guilt? Maybe, somehow. Maybe. But I'm very conscious that people suffered and had to fight for the next generation, and I want to do something probably for the next generations, to not just consume and have fun, but maybe create or transmit important things.

CW:What do you see, I guess, more generally in the role of performing artists, particularly in transmitting culture?

HO:(pause) She's embarrassed. Go ahead, go ahead! (laughs)

CW:(laughs) It's okay. There's no rush.

HO:I don't know. (pause) Well, maybe I know. You should have sent me your questions, because I need to think five minutes before I can give an answer.

CW:That's fine.

HO:Well, there is actually a very interesting contradiction between preserving something that is dead -- old -- or from the past, and playing it on stage. Which is -- on stage, it's the instant. You play it and it's gone. But it's very lively -- alive. It's a little bit like playing Mozart and Beethoven. You're 52:00there with living people there, and you take a risk, and you -- it's really life dans son expression la plus forte, là [in its fullest form, there]. When you're on stage, it's (makes "whew" sound). But what you play is old. So, it's a way to make things alive again, I guess. I don't think I have a lot of interesting things to say about this. But it's an interesting question, actually.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

CW:Have you seen any trends or big changes in the Jewish music scene since you've been involved?

HO:Now she's starting to ask very interesting questions that are too hard to answer.

CW:(laughs)

HO:I'm not saying they were not interesting before, but whoa.

F1:You should take your time, too. We're not in any --

HO:Yeah?

CW:In any rush.

F1:Yeah. Interviews -- a lot of people take some time to think.

HO:Oh, okay.

F1:Yeah.

HO:Okay. But when you're on radio or on TV, you can't do that.

CW:No, no. This is the luxury of talking --

HO: Yeah, you have to be --

CW: [UNCLEAR]

HO:Oh, okay. (pause) It's a tricky question, because being a musician, it's a multilevel -- I mean, you have problem-solving, but multilevel problem-solving. And the observation that you have -- it can be really, like, How am I gonna pay my rent, or, to the extreme, What does it mean to be a musician and whatever. 54:00So, you're often involved with really microscopic problems, and your question is way more macro -- macroscopic? I mean, I observe, but -- especially those last five years, I was so obsessed with my project that I have to admit that I -- plus, I have kids, I'm probably less -- I'm not the best observer of the world in general those last years. But I follow what happens at KlezKanada and in the -- but maybe what I could say, that I feel the need to reinvent, more than fifteen years ago. But people in Montreal -- like Socalled, or me now, that we -- I think maybe after all those years, we're starting to understand that we 55:00can't just repeat what has been done. And being Jewish also, in my opinion, implies to create something. I think creation is really important. Whether it's good or bad, I'm not the one who is going to judge, but I mean, the Jews have brought new things to the world constantly, in my opinion. So, I see what Frank London does -- Socalled and other people that try to blend or combine in the [UNCLEAR] -- they blend Cuban music, which -- so sometimes I love it, sometimes I don't. But I see the -- in parallel to the preservation of the old things, many people try to create a new path. And I think that's what I've been 56:00observing the last fifteen years. But once again, I'm not the best observer of -- why my cat is [UNCLEAR]. (laughs) This is a very Jewish cat, because for a while, he wouldn't come home. I wouldn't see him at all. And I met neighbors, and my neighbors said, Yeah, he comes to our place because we feed him. So, I decided to be a better Jewish mother for him and try to give him better food, and since then, he's completely in love with us. That's pathetic! We can discuss about -- I don't know, about klezmer. I have great discussions. But no, it's only food. Ah.

F1:Very slinky.

CW:(laughs) Sweet. Do you consider yourself an activist?

HO:Yes.

CW:In what way?

HO:(pause) I would say on many levels, but maybe the first level -- which is probably what not most people would say about Yiddish -- is because I'm an outsider for basically every level. Like, I'm French, I'm here, I'm Jewish but not religious. I'm everything and I'm the opposite. I'm not like -- you cannot put me in a box. And actually, I don't want to be put in a box. But because of 58:00this, I think my first, I would say, cause in life is prejudice. And I play klezmer or Yiddish music for, probably, I suspect, a majority of Francophone people -- in Canada, at least. And I give conferences. And I think the most important thing is to show that Jews are like everybody. I mean, they're just Jewish. Some are more, some are less. But probably, that would be my first cause.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

CW:-- the Francophone audience -- changing there?

HO:I would say Francophone or not Jewish, generally speaking. And klezmer has this power. Yiddish, probably less. And actually, that's one of my challenges -- I'm trying to figure out how to bring Yiddish to non-Jewish and non-Anglophone 59:00audiences. But klezmer has this power. Because I'm French and Francophone, I think in Quebec, it helped a lot to build bridges. But there are other bands. And there's one other band for -- en particulier [particularly] -- in Quebec, they're only Francophones, and most of them are not Jewish. And I know they have huge success at the moment. And I think it's very important. So, maybe preserving the past is important for the Jewish community, but I'm trying -- and maybe because I'm somewhere between all those worlds, I think my cause is to bring this music and this knowledge to non-Jewish audiences, basically.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

HO:And I'm also an activist in the sense that you must be crazy to set Yiddish poetry to music. And you have to be driven by faith somehow. And it can't be a 60:00commercial or it can't be -- it's so hard, actually. It's really hard. This project is really hard, because -- now I start to sing my songs myself, because I understand that it's very hard to get great singers. And I had great singers in the past, but to be really into -- especially here in Montreal, where, I guess, the Jewish community is not that big. So, it's a constant struggle -- commercially, artistically. So, now you have to be a little bit meshuge.

CW:(laughs) From your perspective, where is Yiddish within Jewish culture, broader culture right now?

HO:Once again, my perspective sometimes is a little bit centered on my 61:00activities, so it's hard to tell. But from my readings and talking with people, it's somewhere between a cute, old, old-fashioned museum -- a thing that people are starting to be a bit more curious -- and something that people think they can revive. Which I think it doesn't make sense, because to make it alive again -- I mean, I think it's very clear that it won't be alive, even though some people still speak Yiddish. But I don't think it's a struggle that is worth -- I mean, it's not alive as a spoken language. Some people may hate me for saying 62:00that, but -- I mean, some Hasidic communities speak Yiddish, but it doesn't make this language alive in the sense that it's -- it's not going to spread suddenly and to become bigger. I mean, who in my generation or younger will really study Yiddish and speak in Yiddish in everyday life? Oh, you don't agree with me.

CW:What?

HO:I can see your face. (laughs)

CW:No, I'm just thinking. (laughs)

HO:You don't agree with me.

CW:(laughs)

HO:But once again, I want to be very humble about this. I don't really have an opinion. I'm giving my perspective, but I don't think I have enough knowledge about those issues to be really -- I mean, really, many people in Montreal probably know way more about Yiddish, so I'm probably, again, in clichés.

CW:That's fine. (laughs)

HO:But I'm okay to swim in a pool of clichés.

CW:What would you like people to associate Yiddish with or think of for -- what 63:00would you like them to --

HO:You mean non-Jewish or Jewish people?

CW:Either.

HO:Well, one thing that I always say to myself, and somebody questioned that recently, that, What does it mean? But anyway, I say it. I want my music to be heard as world music, like Cesária Évora. Like, when people listen to Cesária Évora, it's in Portuguese, right? They don't care if they don't understand. They hear the sound of the words -- I mean, just the chords. And I think when people listen to Yiddish, whether they're Jewish or not, they think, I need to understand. It has to be smart. It must be smart, because it's Yiddish. So, I 64:00feel that I'm deprived the right to be -- or Yiddish is deprived the right to be only feel-good music. And it doesn't mean that's what I want to do. I mean, some of my songs are piano and voice and the words are important, but as a musician, maybe -- I mean, I love words, but I love music, too. And I think the challenge with Yiddish is that most of the time, lyrics are more important, or considered more important, and I think it's a limitation for its commercial impact. I don't know if it's clear. But Cesária Évora, nobody cares if they don't understand the lyrics. They listen, they love it. And then some of them will go and hopefully find the translation in the booklet, but they won't say, Oh, it's a weird language. Or, It's Jewish, it has to be smart. Unconsciously, because 65:00apparently, some people think that all Jews are smart, which I can tell, it's not true. So, I think that's one of my challenges. I'm sure I won't win this cause, because I'm only a very small fish, but maybe people like Frank London or Socalled or me -- we just add a very small -- to make so that people are interested. I mean, it's again about prejudice. Why this prejudice that what is Jewish has to be -- is -- has meaning or has -- sometimes it's just like, some of those poems, they're beautiful, but they're -- it's only about sex. Nothing special. It's not a big concept. It's not Spinoza or, I don't know -- I mean, I may be wrong. I feel this. I was told once by a friend of mine, "I love discussing with you, because you're smart, because you're Jewish." I was 66:00horrified. It's crazy to say that. So, it goes either way. It can be very negative or very positive. But both ways, I feel it doesn't simply make sense.

CW:What is the next thing for you in this project? What are you working on right now?

HO:Right now, I'm working on a multimedia version of the show of the songs with videos. So, mainly videos, and some mise en scène -- acting. So, we wrote a -- not a scenario, but a -- comment on dit, une [what's the word, a] --

CW:Script?

HO:A script. A script to link the songs together with some narration. So, it's 67:00really about somebody coming to Montreal -- I mean, a Jew -- immigrant -- coming to Montreal and going through all the steps. So we found a way, because actually, I chose the songs really based on what I liked, but in the end, we saw that there was a thread. So, we're working on that. And also, with my personal Jewish experience and life, my team, they decided that we should really blend the universal story of Jewish immigration with my history. Which, in my opinion, is not interesting, but apparently, for them, it's a bit more. I guess from our perspective, our life is not really interesting, but it carries something that we're not aware of. So, I hired quite a few people to work on this -- like, a 68:00drawer -- illustrator?

CW:Illustrator.

HO:Illustratrice, oui. I also work with paintings by Yosl Bergner, who's the dad of Melech Ravitch.

CW:Son. (laughs)

HO:(laughs) The son of Melech Ravitch, who was one of the poets I set to music. Actually, a great poem -- I love this -- everybody hates the poem -- don't say that -- I love it. It's about reincarnation, which is not Jewish at all. God, if you reincarnate me, that's okay -- but not into a man, because man is your worst mistake. And there's something really nihilist that I love in this song. And I set it to some kind of heavy rock -- aggressive. Anyway, so Yosl Bergner has great paintings, and I decided to use some of them. I have to discuss with him 69:00about this, actually. But the CD cover is by him. I mean, it's a painting by Yosl Bergner that we use on the CD cover. And the reason why I'm doing that, I guess, is to be able to bring it to a higher level and a higher production, and also show people that it can be Yiddish and still be entertaining and deep, but generous at the same time. It's not like a small world, for the community -- actually, what I'm trying to do probably is bringing it to a higher -- scope? [UNCLEAR] scope?

CW:Yeah, bigger scope.

HO:A bigger scope?

CW:Larger, yeah.

HO:Even though it's in Yiddish. It's in Yiddish, and it's going to be in Yiddish. And it's possible -- maybe it's not possible, but I'm trying.

CW:Heather, did you have any questions?

F1:Not today.

CW:Okay. I want to see if you had anything you wanted to add to what we've 70:00talked about, at this time.

HO:Je sais -- I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I'm a slow processor. Usually, it takes me a while to go, Oh!

CW:That's fine.

HO:I don't know if it makes sense to say that, but I think we have lost the sense of political struggle in the Jewish community, I think because of some new challenges, I mean, from the last century. It's very polarized. The debate is very polarized, and no longer about social issues. And I thought I would find 71:00some political poems, but actually, not really. And that was a big surprise. Why, in Montreal? Even though most of those people were socialists, or worse (laughs) things in -ist -- anarchists and -- it doesn't show in the poetry. And the ones that were really -- like, tried to carry on this struggle -- there were very few, and they're considered poor poets. Actually, in the last century, we know why it became very polarized between the Soviet Union and -- and it was almost impossible to have a sensible -- no, nuanced -- political, you know, attitude or struggle. But now, I'm missing this. I'm missing the -- I would say 72:00socialist, blah-blah-blah, sense of emancipation. That is, it's not only -- I mean, and that's probably because of Israel, but I understand the problem. But I feel that we've lost that. And Yiddish, in my opinion, carries a lot of those dreams. That's also one of the reasons, why probably, I feel familiar with -- I mean, I feel comfortable with Yiddish -- is that I feel this motherly need -- sense of struggle and -- yeah, that we've lost, I'm afraid. Maybe we can find it back, but --

CW:Bring it back?

HO:Bring it back. Yeah, maybe we can bring it back. But the world is different now. So, Yiddish sounds a little bit sometimes -- but maybe with my work, I'm 73:00trying to bring back some of those dreams. Yeah. That's pretty much all I can say.

CW:I want to end by asking if you have any advice --

HO:To you?

CW:(laughs) Well, maybe --

HO:Don't change anything. (laughter)

CW:You were talking earlier about leaving something for the next generations. Do you have any advice to younger musicians or people who are interested in Yiddish? Or just more generally, future?

HO:In music, you mean? Or generally speaking?

CW:I think either one. Whichever --

HO:I'm too young! Why [UNCLEAR] ask that [UNCLEAR]?

CW:Well, there --

HO:I'm the young generation! No, I'm no longer the young generation, you're right. Okay, let's say a young guy -- like, twenty-five, twenty-four years old 74:00-- comes to my place and says, "Oh, you old and wise man, tell me" -- I'm the rabbi, basically -- "tell me what I should do." (pause) (laughs) I'd say, "Good luck." (laughs) 'Cause frankly, who really can understand this approach? I mean, you need to make a living. It's a tiny market. In order to work in this market, you have to be crazy. I mean, you must have your own reasons to do that, which 75:00I'm not going to discuss. If you come to me and ask for advice, it means you're already crazy, in the good sense. I don't know if in English it sounds -- but have this kind of faith that -- but it's not going to be easy. But I mean, anyway, being a musician is not easy. So maybe, I don't know. I think it's a very personal choice. I mean, you have it or you don't have it. But if you want to do that, it means you have it, and it's already too late for me to say, "Are you sure?"

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

CW:Well, thank you very much.

HO:You're welcome.

CW:(laughs)

[END OF INTERVIEW]