JEAN BAUMGARTEN ORAL HISTORY

DAVID SCHLITT:This is David Schlitt, and today is December 21st, 2010. I am here at the AJS Conference in Boston, Mass., with Professor Jean Baumgarten, and we are going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Professor Baumgarten, do I have your permission to record this interview?

JEAN BAUMGARTEN: Yes, of course. Thank you for interviewing me.

DS:Thank you for participating. I wanted to start out by asking you about your background.

JB:Yes.

DS:And I'm wondering if you could tell me briefly about what you know about your family's background.

JB:My family background is from Alsace -- Jewish family from Alsace. They came to Paris in nineteen century, and they were horse dealers -- I mean, the 1:00nineteenth century -- and also in skin merchants. And they came to Paris. And they were a, let's say, assimilated family, so Yiddish was not a language at home. I learned at university. And we have, let's say, the Jewish background was important but not very religious, so it was a not very religious family.

DS:And what languages were you exposed to? Were you at all exposed to Yiddish 2:00growing up?

JB:No. In the family archives, I found documents -- letters -- in Yiddish, but at home, we didn't speak Yiddish, only French. And of course, they knew a little bit of Hebrew, but, like, bar mitzvah Hebrew. (laughs)

DS:Right. Well, did you have any kind of Jewish supplementary education growing up, or --

JB:Yes, but very few. I was very interested. I read a lot of books. But I was not involved in any specific Jewish community or synagogue.

DS:Well, what about the community that you were part of? Were there Jews in the community? Did they actively identify as Jews? Who were your friends?

JB:Yes. Of course, in my family and friends, and also in the community, of 3:00course we were very conscious of Jewishness. But also, in France, we were, let's say, integrated, even if during the war the family suffered from the Shoah. But after the war, this generation -- they want to -- not to forget, but it was very difficult for them to speak about all this terrible and dramatic period. So, it was like -- not a secret, but very difficult to speak about the war and the suffering connected to the war. So, it's only in the '70s that the French Jewry 4:00started again to -- connected with the Six Day War. It was very important in the French Jewish history at the re-identification. And so, I was part of this, let's say, movement. So, I took part in reviews in the community centers and I started to learn Yiddish and Hebrew and I was more and more involved in the Jewish community. And also, I went to Israel in the '70s -- beginning of -- and it was very important for me. What was important was -- travels through Eastern Europe, especially in Prague and in Poland. And so, I also discovered the reality of the disappearance of this Yiddish culture and Jewish culture.

DS:And when was this?

JB:It was in the end of the '60s, beginning of the '70s.

DS:Can I ask, did -- oh, go on. Sorry.

JB:No, no. And so, it was very important for me -- Israel and also the travels around Czechoslovakia, Poland -- to rediscover and to be in front of this presence and absence of a culture, a very rich culture. So, when I came back, I started to read a lot about Jewish society, about anti-Semitism, about Shoah. And also, I started at the university to study Yiddish with my professor and 6:00friend Alex Derczansky, who was a professor at the School of Oriental Languages. And we were very, very few students. So, it was absolutely marvelous to learn and to study and to teach with this man, who came from Strasbourg, and his parents came from Vilnius -- Vilna -- Vilne. So, I learned a lot with him. For example, we read like a Talmudic reading Weinreich -- "History of the Yiddish Language." And we just start to read this book. And each page, he had very important commands. And we become -- very friend. And due to this encounter and this study, I met a lot of people involved in Yiddish, either in the community 7:00or in the academic world. And I started to study more deeply. I went to Oxford. I discovered the rich Bodleian Library collection. I was absolutely amazed to see all these books -- old Yiddish books. Most of them were not studied. And so, it was a real -- very important moment. And I started to translate the "Tsenerene [Yiddish translation of the Pentateuch, traditionally read by women]" into French. So, it was my first -- it was a way to learn the language and also to see the sources and to start to really work in this field -- old Yiddish 8:00literature and language. So, I --

DS:And when was this?

JB:It was at the end of the '70s, beginning of the '80s. And so, this translation was very important for me. And I did it with the teacher, Alex Derczansky, and he helped me a lot. And also, I had a very important teacher, Léon Poliakov, who wrote on anti-Semitism -- this famous history of anti-Semitism. So, I was very close and a very good friend, so I went very often to talk with him and to listen and to study with him. So, he was also a very important figure. And also for my personal training -- academic training. And 9:00also, a third scholar -- a Christian one: Michel de Certeau. He is a specialist on mysticism. So, I started to read a lot on mysticism. And he was very interested, of course, in Jewish mysticism. His specialty is more seventeenth-century Christian mysticism, but he knew very well the Jewish tradition. So, we had very frequent conversation and discussion. And I participated to his seminars and lessons. So, it was also very important training and study and education.

DS:Let me ask -- what drew you to the "Tsenerene" as a first project, and what 10:00drew you to old Yiddish in general?

JB:So, as I told you, the first very important moment was when I discovered the Bodleian Library. I went to Oxford. And Alex Derczansky, my teacher, told me, "You have to go and to see the books." So, in Paris, we have very few books in the National Library -- and also manuscript -- but the early printed editions, they are very few. So, I went. And Derczansky told me, "You have to look this 'Tsenerene.' It's a fantastic and wonderful and very important old Yiddish book." So, I went through all the editions in Oxford. And I was very, very 11:00interested in these texts, written by a maggid [itinerant Jewish preacher] who knew very well the necessity to transmit and to translate the main Jewish commentaries into Yiddish. And also, the language is very pure, very clear. It's a marvelous book. The author -- he is really, let's say, a genius, because to concentrate and to gather so many commentaries from the traditional, let's say, classical sources, and also a lot of very interesting comments on the minhagim -- on, let's say, Jewish popular culture, on the rituals, on the religious 12:00practices. So, it's a kind of encyclopedia of Eastern European Jewry. And also, I was very interested in the diffusion of the text. It was diffused, as you know, in all the Western, Central, and Eastern Europe -- more than 250 editions. So, it's really a best-seller, if I may say. And so, I started to translate. And I was really very, very -- was amazed and very fascinated by this extremely important text. And it's a very good way to go into this very complex culture and society with the different levels of culture -- the high culture, the popular culture. So, it was a very good entry -- a very good way to get into 13:00this. And then after, I continued to study. I was very interested also in the history of the book, which is one of my specialties, let's say. So, I was interested in the way the book were printed; who were the writers, the translators, the adaptators [sic]; and how these books were diffused all over Europe. And many, many editions of the same text were diffused all over -- disseminated all over Europe through peddlers. So, it was also a very interesting social aspect and cultural aspect of this research. So, step by 14:00step, I studied many aspects of the old Yiddish tradition. And in France, except Derczansky and a few scholars, who are very few working on this field. And I was lucky enough to have a position in the Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique, which is a research center. And so, I started to work on this field and to publish, to translate -- mainly, the relation between text and society -- text as reflecting the Ashkenazi society, and text as a very good way to know and to understand the social history, the cultural history, the 15:00religious practices. So, I worked on the musar -- on the ethical texts; on the translation of the Bible into Yiddish; on the mystical tradition into Yiddish, which is a not very known part of old Yiddish tradition, but it's also very important -- for example, translation of the "Zohar" into Yiddish. And so, step by step, I published. And I wrote "Introduction to Old Yiddish Literature," and my friend and colleague Jerold Frakes translated and edited this text. And so, here I am. (laughs)

DS:Let me ask -- during that time, did you use Yiddish in other settings? Did you speak Yiddish? Did Yiddish have a social function for you in addition to an academic one?

JB:So, it's a big and important question. Yes, of course. I met Yiddish speakers, and especially in Medem Bibliothèque, which is a very important center for Yiddish culture in Paris. And it's very important, because there is a bridge -- a link -- between the old generation, let's say, and the new one. Many of the member of the Arbeter Ring and the Medem Bibliothèque -- they came from Eastern Europe -- from Vilnius, from Varshah, from -- and they were very active in this Bundist organization -- cultural center. And we are young: a new generation, post-Shoah generation, and we are very interested to speak and to 17:00learn in contact with all these marvelous people. So, Medem was a very important social place to meet and to speak Yiddish. And also, there is a marvelous library. So, it was very good also to borrow books, to read books -- newspapers -- and to be really in contact with the Yiddish culture. And of course, I spoke Yiddish with them. But of course, my main interest is, let's say, research and old Yiddish literature. So, of course some of the people in Medem Bibliothèque, they want to transmit the living language. So, it's more important for them -- this goal, this purpose, is really to keep Yiddish as a living language, a daily 18:00life language, if I may say. And there is another part of this group -- this team -- these young Jews and young generation interested in Yiddish who are more centered on research. And so, you have a different kind of approach. So, I was more interested in study, in history -- in social history and cultural studies, in history of the language, history of the literature. And less -- I mean, not less, but I was less involved in, let's say, the transmission of the living language. Of course, it's a very important goal, but I like very much books and 19:00to do research and to write. So, it was a little bit different in this generation, in this group. You have two direction -- two ways. And sometimes they are not opposition, but it's a very different perspective. For example, if you transmit Yiddish to your children, or if it's only a language of culture, of knowledge, of study. So, you have two different ways. Myself, I am more involved in the academic and research, but in Paris, the other part -- the other side -- is also very important.

DS:Do you get a sense of a tension between the two?

JB:Not really a tension, but the way you -- the perspective is different. If you 20:00want to transmit the living language, you don't need to study all these texts and all this tradition. It's more, let's say, an academic perspective. So no, it's not really a tension, but it's two different ways to think, to understand, to transmit Yiddish. I won't say it's a shift, but it's quite a different way to transmit the Yiddish traditions, the Yiddish culture.

DS:Well, let me ask about what you think the scholarly responsibility is with regard to transmission.

JB:Yes.

DS:Because it may not be cultural transmission quite in the same way that you're 21:00describing with the Yiddish activists --

JB:Yes.

DS:-- but is there a role for transmission within scholarship or within the academic world, as you see it?

JB:Definitively, I will say yes. You see, quite often, I go into community centers or cultural groups in the Jewish community in Paris to give talks or lectures, and I am very astonished, because sometimes, the audience -- they don't know very well the history of the language or history of the literature, history of the Ashkenazi society. So, I think it's extremely important to transmit and to diffuse through the, let's say, academic perspective -- to 22:00transmit. It's complementary. Both aspects are extremely important: to transmit the living tradition, but also to study the -- you see, the verticality -- the two dimensions of the Yiddish civilization, the Yiddish culture. And when I give talks -- okay, I mean, the audience -- they are very interested -- it's not because of me, but because they don't know, for example, that in the Middle Ages, you have manuscripts with Yiddish -- Yiddish manuscripts or Hebrew manuscripts with Yiddish inside. And so, they discover a real culture from the Middle Ages to the twenty-one and more century. So, it's very important to give this historical perspective and to insert Yiddish in a broad and general 23:00context, and to give this sense of historicity and the historical perspective. So, I think it complements the transmission of the living language. And you have to do both. Otherwise, you see, the background -- the cultural, the religious -- sometimes, it's not weak, but not sufficient to build and to compose a real culture with both aspects -- culture and the oral transmission, let's say. So, you have to combine the two dimensions.

DS:Let me ask about titles a little bit.

JB:Yeah.

DS:Would you define yourself as a Yiddishist?

JB:It's very difficult to answer, because of course I am involved in the Yiddish world, and of course for me it's really very, very important. But I am not an ideologist. And also, I like to insert Yiddish in a whole context -- and in the global context, so you have to see all the dimension and the comparative and the parallel dimension. For example, I am working on the early modern period, so it's important to see the porosity, the relation, the links between the 25:00non-Jewish society and the Jewish society. And so if -- I mean, Yiddish is not enough by itself; you have to combine with Hebrew, and you also have to have a broader perspective. So, I am a Yiddishist if it's a -- okay -- large perspective, but I am not a Yiddishist if it's only an ideological way to think that Yiddish in itself is everything. So, I don't know if I answer, but I will say yes and no. (laughs)

DS:So, let's continue with definitions then.

JB:Okay.

DS:You used the term "Ashkenazic society" before. I would ask what you mean by 26:00"Ashkenazic society"? And further, I've heard a lot of people -- and I think I've seen in your articles the term "Ashkenaz" used.

JB:Yes.

DS:What is Ashkenaz?

JB:Okay. Of course, it's a very complex question, but it's many, many aspects, including history. It's very important -- the constitution -- the formation of this -- the Jewish society in Europe, compared to other parts of the Jewish world. So, you have specific practices. So, this historical aspect is very important. Also, this, let's say, social and religious aspect also is very 27:00important. But it's also to be a member of a community and to share the same values, the same references, the same language, the same culture, the same books, the same music, the same foods, and to have common values and common references, to define a specific identity and a specific way to behave and to respect all these values -- and also to defend and to struggle for the continuity of this tradition, and to keep this identity and to strengthen it as much as possible by studying, by being a member of a community, by all these different aspects. You see, so as I told you, there is a historical -- roots, 28:00deep roots -- that we have to know and to study, and also, as a member of society, of a community, you have to take part and to be a member and to participate and to defend your own values, your own identity. Because in Europe, anti-Semitism is -- it's a real social problem, so you have also to fight, to defend your own identity. Yes. So, it's -- all these aspects of vertical and horizontal -- could define what is Ashkenazi society, and to be a member of this history and of this society.

DS:You've mentioned anti-Semitism, and I want to kind of bracket that and return to it a little bit later in our interview. The reason why I asked about Ashkenaz is because something that has always astonished me about old Yiddish is the incredible geographic mobility of Jews in Western and Central Europe and the way that books like the "Tsenerene" seem to travel, and in an astonishingly short amount of time. And so, the space, the geography, interests me. And so, my question about Ashkenaz, then, is: do you see it as a space? And do you see it as having geographical boundaries? And if so, what are they?

JB:Yes. I will say, from Middle Ages, let's say, to eighteenth century -- for a first long period -- you have the shaping of a specific culture, a common 30:00culture, from, let's say, northern Italy to Switzerland, Alsace and Lorraine, Amsterdam and Germany, and Bohemia, Moravia, and Eastern Europe. And also, inside this -- what is also very important in the Yiddish culture is, inside, you have subcultures -- not only dialects, but also specific rituals, specific customs. So, what is extremely interesting and fascinating in Ashkenazi culture is this common framework -- these common values -- and also, the very, very -- a lot, a lot of subcultures. And so, it's this tension -- it's this dialectic 31:00between the unity and the micro-society and micro-cultures with specific features. And so, it's a very -- that's why it's so complex and so vivid and living culture. Let's say, for example, if you take the "Tsenerene," it was published in all the main centers of printing in Europe, from sixteenth, seventeenth century to twentieth century -- I mean, let's say, to nineteenth century before the Haskalah. And you see very great -- of course, you have these texts -- these very important texts into the daily life, and you read it on Oneg 32:00Shabbat [gathering after Shabbos services], so it's a very important commentary that you read each week. And so, it's -- let's say, from Basel to Lublin or Krakow to Amsterdam, women and men, they read this book -- the same book. So, it's absolutely amazing -- in big cities, in big communities, and also in shtetlekh [small Eastern European villages with Jewish communities]. It was a very, very famous book. So, you find it in private libraries all over the Ashkenazi world. And also, you have differences, you have discrepancies between -- you have linguistic differences, you have additions, you have transformations -- more religious editions. During the Haskalah period, you have more, let's 33:00say, modernization of the text. So, it's also a very living tradition: changing and following the transformation and the mutation of the Ashkenazi culture and society. So, it's what is extremely interesting in the Ashkenazi culture and society -- it's this unity and also the fact that you have many, many subcultures, and you can be -- you can feel good in a huge society, a huge world -- Ashkenazi world -- and also, for example, in Paris, where you have a specific Yiddish culture, which is not the same as in -- I don't know, in -- of course, 34:00in Poland or in -- so it's one of the richness and -- of this culture, of this Yiddish culture.

DS:And do you view yourself as an inhabitant of Ashkenaz?

JB:Oh, yes, of course. Yes, yes. Absolutely. Yes. Yes, absolutely. I feel at ease and very comfortable in this culture, and being part of the -- member -- is -- because I like to read and to study and to know the many aspects of this culture. And also, because I am absolutely conscious and aware of being a member of a specific Jewish community, which is not the same as here in the Ashkenazi communities in the United States or in the other part of -- yes.

DS:So, you've mentioned anti-Semitism as a social problem -- as an ongoing social problem in Europe, and I was wondering if you could speak to that a little bit more and talk about any personal encounters or challenges with regard to anti-Semitism.

JB:Yes. It's a complex question. But now in France, the -- okay, I will stop a little bit and -- it's difficult. As a person, I never face really anti-Semitic 36:00remarks or -- in France. But the general climate is -- it's -- you hear a lot of -- you read a lot of bad things about Jews. And also, the relation to Israel is very complex. And for example, I give you one example -- at the university, for example, it's -- the extreme Left movement are quite strong, still, now, and they are really -- in an obsessive manner, they are against Israel. So, for us, it's really very difficult to face all this rubbish. All year long, you have 37:00emails, you have discussion with colleagues about Israel. And also, sometimes, it's not only -- of course it's against Israel, but it's also against the fact that Jews have a historical and social existence. It's a big problem for them. So, my own experience at the university, I have to face -- every year, very, very bad remarks and very, very bad climate, and very bad discussion on Jews and Israel. And also in the society, because of the economical crisis, because of the social crisis, also -- anti-Semitism is coming back. So, in France, it's a real, real social problem.

DS:There was a distinction made -- I can speak -- this is not about me, this is about you, but I can tell you about my experience as an undergrad, where there was a clear distinction made between people studying Yiddish and people in Middle Eastern or Israeli studies. And in some ways, Yiddish was embraced by either folks who were post-Zionist or anti-Zionist as something as an alternative -- like a diasporic alternative. Is that same distinction made, in your experience at the institution that you're part of? How is Yiddish fit into the political world of that kind of charged environment?

JB:You raise a very important question. Because now -- for example, in my 39:00institution, okay, I'm not going to say anything, because I am glad to be a member of this research center. But it's more difficult for Jewish studies to be recognized and to -- so you have to struggle. And also, for the young generation, it's very difficult. It's not only because you don't have positions or because the job market is -- it's smaller, but it's also because it's difficult to recognize the Jewish studies as a field into human science. So, it's more -- you feel more and more isolated. And of course we are scholars, we are working on Jewish history -- let's say, Jewish studies. We know each other and we are working all together, but we feel sometimes -- is it possible to say 40:00a kind of solitude -- it's not too strong, this word? Because we -- for example, when you work in a comparative perspective or if you work on any field of human sciences, very, very often the Jewish dimension is not present. For example, recently, I spoke with a team of researchers -- they work on the medieval narrative tradition, and especially on the exempla. And I asked them, Why do you publish articles and books on exempla and you never take into consideration that 41:00in the Jewish literature, in Jewish tradition -- you have a lot -- you have hundreds and hundreds of tales, mayses [Yiddish: stories], exemplas, sipurim [Hebrew: stories], and it's never integrated in your -- so they were very astonished, because for them, it doesn't exist. So, you have to -- you do your own research, but you feel sometimes very isolated, because Jewish studies -- I mean, it's less and less considered as part of the human science. So, I don't know if I answer your question -- and also, it's complicated, it's complex, because, of course, under this, you have also political question -- you have 42:00regard -- the relation with Israel. So, you have a mixture of all this political -- negative view of Israel, of Jewish history, and also the fact that it's very difficult -- and more and more difficult -- for Jewish studies to be taken into consideration in human sciences. So, I don't know if I answer, but we feel this very -- you see, we feel that now it's -- the times are changing and the situation is really changing.

DS:And are you primarily a researcher, or do you work with students as well?

JB:Yes, yes.

DS:Can you tell me a little bit about your experience as a teacher specifically?

JB:Yes. So, as a teacher -- so as I told you, I teach the relation between 43:00Ashkenazi society and Yiddish literature before Haskalah. And the students -- you have three main groups. First, you have people from a certain age who are interested into Yiddish, into Jewish society. Generally, they are retired person -- Jews who like to -- who are interested in Jewish history, so they come to hear our lessons and seminars. You have a large part of the students, they are non-Jews, so they are historians or they are -- and they are very interested in 44:00Judaism and Jewish studies and Jewish literature. And we have -- I won't say a lot, but we have a certain number -- not a lot -- but of converts, converted people who are in the process of conversion. And we have also Jews who, of course, are doing their study in Jewish history or Jewish literature. And so, it's sometimes difficult to -- the harmony and to find the good way to satisfy these different groups, which have very different demands. But yes, we have 45:00these three main, let's say, categories.

DS:Well, tell me more about how you try and meet their different needs and what the challenges have been.

JB:The problem, it's -- some, they know Hebrew, they know Yiddish, so it's possible to work on texts, and some, they are absolutely ignorant for that. They don't know how to read, so you have to translate the texts, so you have to find the balance between more advanced students and less advanced. So, it's always the difficulty -- to find the good way to -- let's say, to satisfy and to -- those who already know a lot and the students who are beginners.

DS:Can you remember a specific -- I mean, or a particularly memorable classroom moment or a teaching moment where you were able to satisfy the needs of different students -- or one where it didn't work out so well?

JB:You see, it's interactive, so I answer the question -- even the more -- the simplest questions, sometimes I have to give very -- I won't say -- but for example, some students had never opened a Bible, and so you have to explain the order of the books and (laughs) very simple things, and some, they know by heart all the Tanakh. So, you have to -- so it's quite a difficult challenge. But we manage.

DS:And among the students that you've worked with, you've said that some of them 47:00know some Yiddish.

JB:Um-hm.

DS:Where did they generally get it from?

JB:They get it generally -- very few from the family, but a lot through Medem and through the school, and they learn Yiddish. So, first they go to learn Yiddish at the Medem Center, and then they come to the university to study. But very few -- they know Yiddish from the home.

DS:And has that changed over the time that you've taught students, or is --

JB:More and more are studying through the Medem, the Center for Yiddish Culture. 48:00It's a very, very important social place for the transmission and to learn and also to read the newspapers and books. And so, you feel and you see immediately that they learn -- at the Medem Center, for example.

DS:I'd like to change gears now again, because I was very interested in the work that you've done on batkhonim [wedding entertainers], and I'm curious as to how you came upon that as a research subject.

JB:You see, I went to Israel, and I wrote a book on the khasidut [Hebrew: Hasidism]. And of course, the minhogim [Hebrew: customs] in the different 49:00Hasidic communities are very important. When the rebbe say that you have to do this, all the community -- so -- and also, it's a very important aspect for the identity of each community to have its own custom, its own religious practices. And so, I was very interested -- when I was in Jerusalem, I went very, very often in the Hasidic communities -- by Vizhnitser and all kind of community in Mea Shearim, and the Bratslave]. And also, in the National Phonothèque in Givat Ram in Jerusalem, I discovered the records -- the recording of the -- and I 50:00worked with the ethnomusicologist Yaakov Mazor. And I -- we -- he recorded a lot of weddings and all kind of events in the different Hasidic communities in Israel, especially in Jerusalem. And so, we record the mitsve-tants [dance of the guests with the bride or groom], khasenes [weddings], all kind of events in Vizhnitser, and also, we went to antverpn [Antwerp] to record a batkhn in the Satmar community. And so, we did a lot of recording. And I started to study -- I was very interested in -- of course, I knew, for example, [Zunser?] or batkhonim 51:00and -- I was very interested in this tradition, and di gramen [the wedding songs] and the poetry. But it was in Jerusalem that I studied with Mazor this tradition. I published a few articles on this. And it's a very, very important aspect of the Hasidic culture nowadays.

DS:And do you see any connecting strands between your work on old Yiddish and your research into batkhonim?

JB:Of course. Of course. As you know, it's a very conservative culture, so they kept -- and they keep -- a lot of old traditional -- so the language is very similar to the -- for example, the ethical poetry -- poetry from the, let's say, seventeenth, eighteenth century. It's absolutely fascinating the way they keep 52:00the same tradition, the same language, the same -- from, let's say, eighteenth century to nowadays. And also, for example, when you -- I was also very interested to know how they transmit the Tanakh in the kheyder [traditional religious school] in the Hasidic communities, and so I studied the way the Bible was transmitted in the primary schools in Eastern Europe. And some scholars, they did research on this aspect. And there is a fabulous continuity between the, let's say, sixteenth, eighteenth century to nowadays in the way they learn and they study and they transmit to kids -- to children -- the Tanakh -- and how 53:00-- the techniques, the process of learning Tanakh. So, for example, when you see the lehazim -- the vernacular glosses in the medieval time, and also the printed edition in the sixteenth and seventeenth century, and you -- some scholars, they recorded the schools in Mea Shearim, and it's incredible; you see the continuity between the older tradition and the nowadays tradition. So, it's absolutely fascinating. And yes, there is a link between the old printed tradition and this oral transmission nowadays in the Hasidic communities.

DS:And I wish we weren't nearing the end of our time, because I'd like to probe much more deeply into your work on Hasidic communities. We have only about ten minutes left to talk. But I'm particularly interested in returning to the question of cultural activism and cultural transmission and what you see as going on in the Hasidic communities, and whether you see it as being in any way related to the cultural transmission that goes on in the Medem Library or places -- you know, points of similarity, points of difference. What is the cultural activism of the Hasidic world, if any?

JB:Oh, it's a complex question, and I know less the contemporary Hasidic world. Because in Paris, except the Lubavitch, the Hasidic communities are less strong 55:00than here in the States. So, I won't -- it's a difficult question, but perhaps I would like to speak on my latest research on the history of the Yiddish book, which is also a very important question. Because you're speaking about transmission, so what is the role and the function of the books into the transmission of this culture? So, let's say, there is really a continuity -- one more time -- between the early modern period, when all this production and printing of popular Yiddish books, booklets -- diffused by peddlers and 56:00itinerant booksellers in Central and Eastern Europe. And this diffusion has a very important social role, to -- of course, not only to transmit the religious texts, but also for the transformation of the Jewish and the Yiddish culture and a kind of pre-Haskalah culture, with a lot of profane literature -- profane texts. So, it's very important to know that for the simple Jews who were not [chachamim] and very well -- I mean, big -- who don't know very well the Talmud and the [Hebrew - 00:57:00] and all the classical texts. It was very important 57:00for them to have all this very cheap production of books. And it was disseminated, as I told, all over Europe. It was a very complex network of transmission. And to be able to have at home a book of customs -- minhogim [Jewish religious customs], nusekh [Jewish ritual], sifrut musar, ethical literature -- to have a "Tsenerene," to have bilingual makhzoyrim [prayer books for the Jewish holidays] or siddurim -- and also epics and roman de chevalerie -- chivalry novels. So, it changed the relation to the rabbinical authorities, because it was possible for them to read by themselves. Not only through an oral 58:00transmission from, let's say, a [chacham] -- a master -- to less educated Jews, but also to have their own books and to read it when they want and how they want to and to add personal commentaries and even mystical commentaries. So, it was very, very important also for the transformation of the Jewish culture, and the secularization of the culture -- of the Jewish culture -- and the modernization of the culture. And if we look now and we jump to the modern world, I think also it's very important -- and I'm very surprised, for example, when I go to bookstores in the States or -- to find all these manuals and guides about 59:00Kabbalah, about Judaism, about the way to transmit the fundamental values and the texts. And so, there is a fascinating continuity -- the big problem being what to transmit and how to transmit it and between the old Yiddish literature. Of course, it's different, but all this new literature you find in every bookstore, you see how this question of this transmission is really important, and it's a very central goal. And I feel really a link between the old, traditional world and the contemporary world. And the fact that you have all this personal relation with classical texts, with tradition, and with all this 60:00production of manuals to give the fundamental classical texts into English or French or -- so, of course transmission is very important. And also, for the Jews in this very -- I mean, difficult world to keep your own traditions, so it's -- I think books and transmission of classical texts -- and to study the texts, the rabbinical texts and the classical texts -- the "Tsenerene," for example -- is also very, very important. And you have a lot of translation, you have a lot of books based on the same structure and on the same goal: to 61:00transmit the fundamental values of Judaism.

DS:So then, for my final question, I guess I'd like you to look into the future: do the work that historians are not supposed to do and ask you about what you think the future of this culture of transmission and of Yiddish is, and what advice, perhaps, you'd have for future Yiddish scholars or up-and-coming Yiddish scholars.

JB:I am pessimistic and optimistic both. Of course, Yiddish will be never, as before, related to social-economic life centered on Yiddish as it was in -- so of course, with the Shoah and with the secularization and with the transformation of the contemporary world, many, many parts of this civilization 62:00-- of this culture -- disappeared. But we have to be confident and we have to be optimistic, optimist -- because you never know -- with culture, with language, with the new generation, what they are going to do with this treasure, this fantastic and very rich culture. And for example -- I take this example of Paris, of the Center for Yiddish Culture, who is now very, very important, a very living place. And you have a lot, a lot of Jews who are coming back to Yiddish -- learning, studying, speaking, having a social life around Yiddish. 63:00So, I won't say it's a very big -- it's difficult to say, to measure social -- but it's very important, because you see that step by step and very slowly, these things are -- of course they are changing -- it's not the same way to learn and to transmit, but still there is a need to transmit and also because it's a fabulous and very rich and extraordinary culture. So, when you teach and when you transmit to ignorants -- let's say, Jews who don't know anything about 64:00-- it's very amazing to see how fascinated they are and how easy to transmit -- because it's so extraordinary, so rich. So, I am confident and I am very -- I am an optimist, because we don't know what will be the -- of course -- will be the future. But when you see, for example, a center like Medem and the Center for Yiddish Culture, it's a very -- it's a miracle to have such a center -- a lot of activities and books and oral transmission and parents and kids. And also, in the academic world, now in Europe, in the main capitals and main centers, you have Yiddish studies, Yiddish scholars who are working on this field. And so, 65:00either the living tradition -- in the family, in the community, in the social network -- it's important, but -- and also, the cultural aspect and the academic part of this transmission is also important. So, of course it's different -- not the same -- but Yiddish is still there, and it's still transmitted. And we have to be optimistic.

DS:Well, Professor Baumgarten, I want to thank you so much for speaking with me and for taking the time. It was a terrific experience for me, and like I said, I greatly appreciate it.

JB:Well, I thank you very much.

[END OF INTERVIEW]