Keywords:1970s; 1980s; academia; academics; Alexander Jansky; anti-Semitism education; education; Jewish mysticism; language instruction; language studies; Leon Poliakov; Michel du Charteau; mysticism; scholars; translation; Tsene-rene; Tsenerene; university; Yiddish language; Yiddish studies
Keywords:activism; anti-Semitism; anti-Semitism in academia; antisemitism; antisemitism in academia; France; French Jews; Israel-Diaspora relationship; Israeli relations; political activism; politics; resurgence of anti-Semitism; resurgence of antisemitism; social upheaval
DAVID SCHLITT:This is David Schlitt, and today is December 21st, 2010. I am here
at the AJS Conference in Boston, Mass., with Professor Jean Baumgarten, and weare going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's WexlerOral History Project. Professor Baumgarten, do I have your permission to recordthis interview?
JEAN BAUMGARTEN: Yes, of course. Thank you for interviewing me.
DS:Thank you for participating. I wanted to start out by asking you about your background.
JB:Yes.
DS:And I'm wondering if you could tell me briefly about what you know about your
family's background.
JB:My family background is from Alsace -- Jewish family from Alsace. They came
to Paris in nineteen century, and they were horse dealers -- I mean, the 1:00nineteenth century -- and also in skin merchants. And they came to Paris. Andthey were a, let's say, assimilated family, so Yiddish was not a language athome. I learned at university. And we have, let's say, the Jewish background wasimportant but not very religious, so it was a not very religious family.
DS:And what languages were you exposed to? Were you at all exposed to Yiddish
JB:No. In the family archives, I found documents -- letters -- in Yiddish, but
at home, we didn't speak Yiddish, only French. And of course, they knew a littlebit of Hebrew, but, like, bar mitzvah Hebrew. (laughs)
DS:Right. Well, did you have any kind of Jewish supplementary education growing
up, or --
JB:Yes, but very few. I was very interested. I read a lot of books. But I was
not involved in any specific Jewish community or synagogue.
DS:Well, what about the community that you were part of? Were there Jews in the
community? Did they actively identify as Jews? Who were your friends?
JB:Yes. Of course, in my family and friends, and also in the community, of
3:00course we were very conscious of Jewishness. But also, in France, we were, let'ssay, integrated, even if during the war the family suffered from the Shoah. Butafter the war, this generation -- they want to -- not to forget, but it was verydifficult for them to speak about all this terrible and dramatic period. So, itwas like -- not a secret, but very difficult to speak about the war and thesuffering connected to the war. So, it's only in the '70s that the French Jewry 4:00started again to -- connected with the Six Day War. It was very important in theFrench Jewish history at the re-identification. And so, I was part of this,let's say, movement. So, I took part in reviews in the community centers and Istarted to learn Yiddish and Hebrew and I was more and more involved in theJewish community. And also, I went to Israel in the '70s -- beginning of -- andit was very important for me. What was important was -- travels through EasternEurope, especially in Prague and in Poland. And so, I also discovered thereality of the disappearance of this Yiddish culture and Jewish culture. 5:00
DS:And when was this?
JB:It was in the end of the '60s, beginning of the '70s.
DS:Can I ask, did -- oh, go on. Sorry.
JB:No, no. And so, it was very important for me -- Israel and also the travels
around Czechoslovakia, Poland -- to rediscover and to be in front of thispresence and absence of a culture, a very rich culture. So, when I came back, Istarted to read a lot about Jewish society, about anti-Semitism, about Shoah.And also, I started at the university to study Yiddish with my professor and 6:00friend Alex Derczansky, who was a professor at the School of Oriental Languages.And we were very, very few students. So, it was absolutely marvelous to learnand to study and to teach with this man, who came from Strasbourg, and hisparents came from Vilnius -- Vilna -- Vilne. So, I learned a lot with him. Forexample, we read like a Talmudic reading Weinreich -- "History of the YiddishLanguage." And we just start to read this book. And each page, he had veryimportant commands. And we become -- very friend. And due to this encounter andthis study, I met a lot of people involved in Yiddish, either in the community 7:00or in the academic world. And I started to study more deeply. I went to Oxford.I discovered the rich Bodleian Library collection. I was absolutely amazed tosee all these books -- old Yiddish books. Most of them were not studied. And so,it was a real -- very important moment. And I started to translate the"Tsenerene [Yiddish translation of the Pentateuch, traditionally read by women]"into French. So, it was my first -- it was a way to learn the language and alsoto see the sources and to start to really work in this field -- old Yiddish 8:00literature and language. So, I --
DS:And when was this?
JB:It was at the end of the '70s, beginning of the '80s. And so, this
translation was very important for me. And I did it with the teacher, AlexDerczansky, and he helped me a lot. And also, I had a very important teacher,Léon Poliakov, who wrote on anti-Semitism -- this famous history ofanti-Semitism. So, I was very close and a very good friend, so I went very oftento talk with him and to listen and to study with him. So, he was also a veryimportant figure. And also for my personal training -- academic training. And 9:00also, a third scholar -- a Christian one: Michel de Certeau. He is a specialiston mysticism. So, I started to read a lot on mysticism. And he was veryinterested, of course, in Jewish mysticism. His specialty is moreseventeenth-century Christian mysticism, but he knew very well the Jewishtradition. So, we had very frequent conversation and discussion. And Iparticipated to his seminars and lessons. So, it was also very importanttraining and study and education.
DS:Let me ask -- what drew you to the "Tsenerene" as a first project, and what
JB:So, as I told you, the first very important moment was when I discovered the
Bodleian Library. I went to Oxford. And Alex Derczansky, my teacher, told me,"You have to go and to see the books." So, in Paris, we have very few books inthe National Library -- and also manuscript -- but the early printed editions,they are very few. So, I went. And Derczansky told me, "You have to look this'Tsenerene.' It's a fantastic and wonderful and very important old Yiddishbook." So, I went through all the editions in Oxford. And I was very, very 11:00interested in these texts, written by a maggid [itinerant Jewish preacher] whoknew very well the necessity to transmit and to translate the main Jewishcommentaries into Yiddish. And also, the language is very pure, very clear. It'sa marvelous book. The author -- he is really, let's say, a genius, because toconcentrate and to gather so many commentaries from the traditional, let's say,classical sources, and also a lot of very interesting comments on the minhagim-- on, let's say, Jewish popular culture, on the rituals, on the religious 12:00practices. So, it's a kind of encyclopedia of Eastern European Jewry. And also,I was very interested in the diffusion of the text. It was diffused, as youknow, in all the Western, Central, and Eastern Europe -- more than 250 editions.So, it's really a best-seller, if I may say. And so, I started to translate. AndI was really very, very -- was amazed and very fascinated by this extremelyimportant text. And it's a very good way to go into this very complex cultureand society with the different levels of culture -- the high culture, thepopular culture. So, it was a very good entry -- a very good way to get into 13:00this. And then after, I continued to study. I was very interested also in thehistory of the book, which is one of my specialties, let's say. So, I wasinterested in the way the book were printed; who were the writers, thetranslators, the adaptators [sic]; and how these books were diffused all overEurope. And many, many editions of the same text were diffused all over --disseminated all over Europe through peddlers. So, it was also a veryinteresting social aspect and cultural aspect of this research. So, step by 14:00step, I studied many aspects of the old Yiddish tradition. And in France, exceptDerczansky and a few scholars, who are very few working on this field. And I waslucky enough to have a position in the Centre National de la RechercheScientifique, which is a research center. And so, I started to work on thisfield and to publish, to translate -- mainly, the relation between text andsociety -- text as reflecting the Ashkenazi society, and text as a very good wayto know and to understand the social history, the cultural history, the 15:00religious practices. So, I worked on the musar -- on the ethical texts; on thetranslation of the Bible into Yiddish; on the mystical tradition into Yiddish,which is a not very known part of old Yiddish tradition, but it's also veryimportant -- for example, translation of the "Zohar" into Yiddish. And so, stepby step, I published. And I wrote "Introduction to Old Yiddish Literature," andmy friend and colleague Jerold Frakes translated and edited this text. And so,here I am. (laughs)
DS:Let me ask -- during that time, did you use Yiddish in other settings? Did
you speak Yiddish? Did Yiddish have a social function for you in addition to anacademic one? 16:00
JB:So, it's a big and important question. Yes, of course. I met Yiddish
speakers, and especially in Medem Bibliothèque, which is a very importantcenter for Yiddish culture in Paris. And it's very important, because there is abridge -- a link -- between the old generation, let's say, and the new one. Manyof the member of the Arbeter Ring and the Medem Bibliothèque -- they came fromEastern Europe -- from Vilnius, from Varshah, from -- and they were very activein this Bundist organization -- cultural center. And we are young: a newgeneration, post-Shoah generation, and we are very interested to speak and to 17:00learn in contact with all these marvelous people. So, Medem was a very importantsocial place to meet and to speak Yiddish. And also, there is a marvelouslibrary. So, it was very good also to borrow books, to read books -- newspapers-- and to be really in contact with the Yiddish culture. And of course, I spokeYiddish with them. But of course, my main interest is, let's say, research andold Yiddish literature. So, of course some of the people in Medem Bibliothèque,they want to transmit the living language. So, it's more important for them --this goal, this purpose, is really to keep Yiddish as a living language, a daily 18:00life language, if I may say. And there is another part of this group -- thisteam -- these young Jews and young generation interested in Yiddish who are morecentered on research. And so, you have a different kind of approach. So, I wasmore interested in study, in history -- in social history and cultural studies,in history of the language, history of the literature. And less -- I mean, notless, but I was less involved in, let's say, the transmission of the livinglanguage. Of course, it's a very important goal, but I like very much books and 19:00to do research and to write. So, it was a little bit different in thisgeneration, in this group. You have two direction -- two ways. And sometimesthey are not opposition, but it's a very different perspective. For example, ifyou transmit Yiddish to your children, or if it's only a language of culture, ofknowledge, of study. So, you have two different ways. Myself, I am more involvedin the academic and research, but in Paris, the other part -- the other side --is also very important.
DS:Do you get a sense of a tension between the two?
JB:Not really a tension, but the way you -- the perspective is different. If you
20:00want to transmit the living language, you don't need to study all these textsand all this tradition. It's more, let's say, an academic perspective. So no,it's not really a tension, but it's two different ways to think, to understand,to transmit Yiddish. I won't say it's a shift, but it's quite a different way totransmit the Yiddish traditions, the Yiddish culture.
DS:Well, let me ask about what you think the scholarly responsibility is with
regard to transmission.
JB:Yes.
DS:Because it may not be cultural transmission quite in the same way that you're
DS:-- but is there a role for transmission within scholarship or within the
academic world, as you see it?
JB:Definitively, I will say yes. You see, quite often, I go into community
centers or cultural groups in the Jewish community in Paris to give talks orlectures, and I am very astonished, because sometimes, the audience -- theydon't know very well the history of the language or history of the literature,history of the Ashkenazi society. So, I think it's extremely important totransmit and to diffuse through the, let's say, academic perspective -- to 22:00transmit. It's complementary. Both aspects are extremely important: to transmitthe living tradition, but also to study the -- you see, the verticality -- thetwo dimensions of the Yiddish civilization, the Yiddish culture. And when I givetalks -- okay, I mean, the audience -- they are very interested -- it's notbecause of me, but because they don't know, for example, that in the MiddleAges, you have manuscripts with Yiddish -- Yiddish manuscripts or Hebrewmanuscripts with Yiddish inside. And so, they discover a real culture from theMiddle Ages to the twenty-one and more century. So, it's very important to givethis historical perspective and to insert Yiddish in a broad and general 23:00context, and to give this sense of historicity and the historical perspective.So, I think it complements the transmission of the living language. And you haveto do both. Otherwise, you see, the background -- the cultural, the religious --sometimes, it's not weak, but not sufficient to build and to compose a realculture with both aspects -- culture and the oral transmission, let's say. So,you have to combine the two dimensions.
JB:It's very difficult to answer, because of course I am involved in the Yiddish
world, and of course for me it's really very, very important. But I am not anideologist. And also, I like to insert Yiddish in a whole context -- and in theglobal context, so you have to see all the dimension and the comparative and theparallel dimension. For example, I am working on the early modern period, soit's important to see the porosity, the relation, the links between the 25:00non-Jewish society and the Jewish society. And so if -- I mean, Yiddish is notenough by itself; you have to combine with Hebrew, and you also have to have abroader perspective. So, I am a Yiddishist if it's a -- okay -- largeperspective, but I am not a Yiddishist if it's only an ideological way to thinkthat Yiddish in itself is everything. So, I don't know if I answer, but I willsay yes and no. (laughs)
DS:So, let's continue with definitions then.
JB:Okay.
DS:You used the term "Ashkenazic society" before. I would ask what you mean by
26:00"Ashkenazic society"? And further, I've heard a lot of people -- and I thinkI've seen in your articles the term "Ashkenaz" used.
JB:Yes.
DS:What is Ashkenaz?
JB:Okay. Of course, it's a very complex question, but it's many, many aspects,
including history. It's very important -- the constitution -- the formation ofthis -- the Jewish society in Europe, compared to other parts of the Jewishworld. So, you have specific practices. So, this historical aspect is veryimportant. Also, this, let's say, social and religious aspect also is very 27:00important. But it's also to be a member of a community and to share the samevalues, the same references, the same language, the same culture, the samebooks, the same music, the same foods, and to have common values and commonreferences, to define a specific identity and a specific way to behave and torespect all these values -- and also to defend and to struggle for thecontinuity of this tradition, and to keep this identity and to strengthen it asmuch as possible by studying, by being a member of a community, by all thesedifferent aspects. You see, so as I told you, there is a historical -- roots, 28:00deep roots -- that we have to know and to study, and also, as a member ofsociety, of a community, you have to take part and to be a member and toparticipate and to defend your own values, your own identity. Because in Europe,anti-Semitism is -- it's a real social problem, so you have also to fight, todefend your own identity. Yes. So, it's -- all these aspects of vertical andhorizontal -- could define what is Ashkenazi society, and to be a member of thishistory and of this society. 29:00
DS:You've mentioned anti-Semitism, and I want to kind of bracket that and return
to it a little bit later in our interview. The reason why I asked about Ashkenazis because something that has always astonished me about old Yiddish is theincredible geographic mobility of Jews in Western and Central Europe and the waythat books like the "Tsenerene" seem to travel, and in an astonishingly shortamount of time. And so, the space, the geography, interests me. And so, myquestion about Ashkenaz, then, is: do you see it as a space? And do you see itas having geographical boundaries? And if so, what are they?
JB:Yes. I will say, from Middle Ages, let's say, to eighteenth century -- for a
first long period -- you have the shaping of a specific culture, a common 30:00culture, from, let's say, northern Italy to Switzerland, Alsace and Lorraine,Amsterdam and Germany, and Bohemia, Moravia, and Eastern Europe. And also,inside this -- what is also very important in the Yiddish culture is, inside,you have subcultures -- not only dialects, but also specific rituals, specificcustoms. So, what is extremely interesting and fascinating in Ashkenazi cultureis this common framework -- these common values -- and also, the very, very -- alot, a lot of subcultures. And so, it's this tension -- it's this dialectic 31:00between the unity and the micro-society and micro-cultures with specificfeatures. And so, it's a very -- that's why it's so complex and so vivid andliving culture. Let's say, for example, if you take the "Tsenerene," it waspublished in all the main centers of printing in Europe, from sixteenth,seventeenth century to twentieth century -- I mean, let's say, to nineteenthcentury before the Haskalah. And you see very great -- of course, you have thesetexts -- these very important texts into the daily life, and you read it on Oneg 32:00Shabbat [gathering after Shabbos services], so it's a very important commentarythat you read each week. And so, it's -- let's say, from Basel to Lublin orKrakow to Amsterdam, women and men, they read this book -- the same book. So,it's absolutely amazing -- in big cities, in big communities, and also inshtetlekh [small Eastern European villages with Jewish communities]. It was avery, very famous book. So, you find it in private libraries all over theAshkenazi world. And also, you have differences, you have discrepancies between-- you have linguistic differences, you have additions, you have transformations-- more religious editions. During the Haskalah period, you have more, let's 33:00say, modernization of the text. So, it's also a very living tradition: changingand following the transformation and the mutation of the Ashkenazi culture andsociety. So, it's what is extremely interesting in the Ashkenazi culture andsociety -- it's this unity and also the fact that you have many, manysubcultures, and you can be -- you can feel good in a huge society, a huge world-- Ashkenazi world -- and also, for example, in Paris, where you have a specificYiddish culture, which is not the same as in -- I don't know, in -- of course, 34:00in Poland or in -- so it's one of the richness and -- of this culture, of thisYiddish culture.
DS:And do you view yourself as an inhabitant of Ashkenaz?
JB:Oh, yes, of course. Yes, yes. Absolutely. Yes. Yes, absolutely. I feel at
ease and very comfortable in this culture, and being part of the -- member -- is-- because I like to read and to study and to know the many aspects of thisculture. And also, because I am absolutely conscious and aware of being a memberof a specific Jewish community, which is not the same as here in the Ashkenazicommunities in the United States or in the other part of -- yes. 35:00
DS:So, you've mentioned anti-Semitism as a social problem -- as an ongoing
social problem in Europe, and I was wondering if you could speak to that alittle bit more and talk about any personal encounters or challenges with regardto anti-Semitism.
JB:Yes. It's a complex question. But now in France, the -- okay, I will stop a
little bit and -- it's difficult. As a person, I never face really anti-Semitic 36:00remarks or -- in France. But the general climate is -- it's -- you hear a lot of-- you read a lot of bad things about Jews. And also, the relation to Israel isvery complex. And for example, I give you one example -- at the university, forexample, it's -- the extreme Left movement are quite strong, still, now, andthey are really -- in an obsessive manner, they are against Israel. So, for us,it's really very difficult to face all this rubbish. All year long, you have 37:00emails, you have discussion with colleagues about Israel. And also, sometimes,it's not only -- of course it's against Israel, but it's also against the factthat Jews have a historical and social existence. It's a big problem for them.So, my own experience at the university, I have to face -- every year, very,very bad remarks and very, very bad climate, and very bad discussion on Jews andIsrael. And also in the society, because of the economical crisis, because ofthe social crisis, also -- anti-Semitism is coming back. So, in France, it's areal, real social problem. 38:00
DS:There was a distinction made -- I can speak -- this is not about me, this is
about you, but I can tell you about my experience as an undergrad, where therewas a clear distinction made between people studying Yiddish and people inMiddle Eastern or Israeli studies. And in some ways, Yiddish was embraced byeither folks who were post-Zionist or anti-Zionist as something as analternative -- like a diasporic alternative. Is that same distinction made, inyour experience at the institution that you're part of? How is Yiddish fit intothe political world of that kind of charged environment?
JB:You raise a very important question. Because now -- for example, in my
39:00institution, okay, I'm not going to say anything, because I am glad to be amember of this research center. But it's more difficult for Jewish studies to berecognized and to -- so you have to struggle. And also, for the younggeneration, it's very difficult. It's not only because you don't have positionsor because the job market is -- it's smaller, but it's also because it'sdifficult to recognize the Jewish studies as a field into human science. So,it's more -- you feel more and more isolated. And of course we are scholars, weare working on Jewish history -- let's say, Jewish studies. We know each otherand we are working all together, but we feel sometimes -- is it possible to say 40:00a kind of solitude -- it's not too strong, this word? Because we -- for example,when you work in a comparative perspective or if you work on any field of humansciences, very, very often the Jewish dimension is not present. For example,recently, I spoke with a team of researchers -- they work on the medievalnarrative tradition, and especially on the exempla. And I asked them, Why do youpublish articles and books on exempla and you never take into consideration that 41:00in the Jewish literature, in Jewish tradition -- you have a lot -- you havehundreds and hundreds of tales, mayses [Yiddish: stories], exemplas, sipurim[Hebrew: stories], and it's never integrated in your -- so they were veryastonished, because for them, it doesn't exist. So, you have to -- you do yourown research, but you feel sometimes very isolated, because Jewish studies -- Imean, it's less and less considered as part of the human science. So, I don'tknow if I answer your question -- and also, it's complicated, it's complex,because, of course, under this, you have also political question -- you have 42:00regard -- the relation with Israel. So, you have a mixture of all this political-- negative view of Israel, of Jewish history, and also the fact that it's verydifficult -- and more and more difficult -- for Jewish studies to be taken intoconsideration in human sciences. So, I don't know if I answer, but we feel thisvery -- you see, we feel that now it's -- the times are changing and thesituation is really changing.
DS:And are you primarily a researcher, or do you work with students as well?
JB:Yes, yes.
DS:Can you tell me a little bit about your experience as a teacher specifically?
JB:Yes. So, as a teacher -- so as I told you, I teach the relation between
43:00Ashkenazi society and Yiddish literature before Haskalah. And the students --you have three main groups. First, you have people from a certain age who areinterested into Yiddish, into Jewish society. Generally, they are retired person-- Jews who like to -- who are interested in Jewish history, so they come tohear our lessons and seminars. You have a large part of the students, they arenon-Jews, so they are historians or they are -- and they are very interested in 44:00Judaism and Jewish studies and Jewish literature. And we have -- I won't say alot, but we have a certain number -- not a lot -- but of converts, convertedpeople who are in the process of conversion. And we have also Jews who, ofcourse, are doing their study in Jewish history or Jewish literature. And so,it's sometimes difficult to -- the harmony and to find the good way to satisfythese different groups, which have very different demands. But yes, we have 45:00these three main, let's say, categories.
DS:Well, tell me more about how you try and meet their different needs and what
the challenges have been.
JB:The problem, it's -- some, they know Hebrew, they know Yiddish, so it's
possible to work on texts, and some, they are absolutely ignorant for that. Theydon't know how to read, so you have to translate the texts, so you have to findthe balance between more advanced students and less advanced. So, it's alwaysthe difficulty -- to find the good way to -- let's say, to satisfy and to --those who already know a lot and the students who are beginners. 46:00
DS:Can you remember a specific -- I mean, or a particularly memorable classroom
moment or a teaching moment where you were able to satisfy the needs ofdifferent students -- or one where it didn't work out so well?
JB:You see, it's interactive, so I answer the question -- even the more -- the
simplest questions, sometimes I have to give very -- I won't say -- but forexample, some students had never opened a Bible, and so you have to explain theorder of the books and (laughs) very simple things, and some, they know by heartall the Tanakh. So, you have to -- so it's quite a difficult challenge. But we manage.
DS:And among the students that you've worked with, you've said that some of them
JB:They get it generally -- very few from the family, but a lot through Medem
and through the school, and they learn Yiddish. So, first they go to learnYiddish at the Medem Center, and then they come to the university to study. Butvery few -- they know Yiddish from the home.
DS:And has that changed over the time that you've taught students, or is --
JB:More and more are studying through the Medem, the Center for Yiddish Culture.
48:00It's a very, very important social place for the transmission and to learn andalso to read the newspapers and books. And so, you feel and you see immediatelythat they learn -- at the Medem Center, for example.
DS:I'd like to change gears now again, because I was very interested in the work
that you've done on batkhonim [wedding entertainers], and I'm curious as to howyou came upon that as a research subject.
JB:You see, I went to Israel, and I wrote a book on the khasidut [Hebrew:
Hasidism]. And of course, the minhogim [Hebrew: customs] in the different 49:00Hasidic communities are very important. When the rebbe say that you have to dothis, all the community -- so -- and also, it's a very important aspect for theidentity of each community to have its own custom, its own religious practices.And so, I was very interested -- when I was in Jerusalem, I went very, veryoften in the Hasidic communities -- by Vizhnitser and all kind of community inMea Shearim, and the Bratslave]. And also, in the National Phonothèque in GivatRam in Jerusalem, I discovered the records -- the recording of the -- and I 50:00worked with the ethnomusicologist Yaakov Mazor. And I -- we -- he recorded a lotof weddings and all kind of events in the different Hasidic communities inIsrael, especially in Jerusalem. And so, we record the mitsve-tants [dance ofthe guests with the bride or groom], khasenes [weddings], all kind of events inVizhnitser, and also, we went to antverpn [Antwerp] to record a batkhn in theSatmar community. And so, we did a lot of recording. And I started to study -- Iwas very interested in -- of course, I knew, for example, [Zunser?] or batkhonim 51:00and -- I was very interested in this tradition, and di gramen [the weddingsongs] and the poetry. But it was in Jerusalem that I studied with Mazor thistradition. I published a few articles on this. And it's a very, very importantaspect of the Hasidic culture nowadays.
DS:And do you see any connecting strands between your work on old Yiddish and
your research into batkhonim?
JB:Of course. Of course. As you know, it's a very conservative culture, so they
kept -- and they keep -- a lot of old traditional -- so the language is verysimilar to the -- for example, the ethical poetry -- poetry from the, let's say,seventeenth, eighteenth century. It's absolutely fascinating the way they keep 52:00the same tradition, the same language, the same -- from, let's say, eighteenthcentury to nowadays. And also, for example, when you -- I was also veryinterested to know how they transmit the Tanakh in the kheyder [traditionalreligious school] in the Hasidic communities, and so I studied the way the Biblewas transmitted in the primary schools in Eastern Europe. And some scholars,they did research on this aspect. And there is a fabulous continuity betweenthe, let's say, sixteenth, eighteenth century to nowadays in the way they learnand they study and they transmit to kids -- to children -- the Tanakh -- and how 53:00-- the techniques, the process of learning Tanakh. So, for example, when you seethe lehazim -- the vernacular glosses in the medieval time, and also the printededition in the sixteenth and seventeenth century, and you -- some scholars, theyrecorded the schools in Mea Shearim, and it's incredible; you see the continuitybetween the older tradition and the nowadays tradition. So, it's absolutelyfascinating. And yes, there is a link between the old printed tradition and thisoral transmission nowadays in the Hasidic communities. 54:00
DS:And I wish we weren't nearing the end of our time, because I'd like to probe
much more deeply into your work on Hasidic communities. We have only about tenminutes left to talk. But I'm particularly interested in returning to thequestion of cultural activism and cultural transmission and what you see asgoing on in the Hasidic communities, and whether you see it as being in any wayrelated to the cultural transmission that goes on in the Medem Library or places-- you know, points of similarity, points of difference. What is the culturalactivism of the Hasidic world, if any?
JB:Oh, it's a complex question, and I know less the contemporary Hasidic world.
Because in Paris, except the Lubavitch, the Hasidic communities are less strong 55:00than here in the States. So, I won't -- it's a difficult question, but perhaps Iwould like to speak on my latest research on the history of the Yiddish book,which is also a very important question. Because you're speaking abouttransmission, so what is the role and the function of the books into thetransmission of this culture? So, let's say, there is really a continuity -- onemore time -- between the early modern period, when all this production andprinting of popular Yiddish books, booklets -- diffused by peddlers and 56:00itinerant booksellers in Central and Eastern Europe. And this diffusion has avery important social role, to -- of course, not only to transmit the religioustexts, but also for the transformation of the Jewish and the Yiddish culture anda kind of pre-Haskalah culture, with a lot of profane literature -- profanetexts. So, it's very important to know that for the simple Jews who were not[chachamim] and very well -- I mean, big -- who don't know very well the Talmudand the [Hebrew - 00:57:00] and all the classical texts. It was very important 57:00for them to have all this very cheap production of books. And it wasdisseminated, as I told, all over Europe. It was a very complex network oftransmission. And to be able to have at home a book of customs -- minhogim[Jewish religious customs], nusekh [Jewish ritual], sifrut musar, ethicalliterature -- to have a "Tsenerene," to have bilingual makhzoyrim [prayer booksfor the Jewish holidays] or siddurim -- and also epics and roman de chevalerie-- chivalry novels. So, it changed the relation to the rabbinical authorities,because it was possible for them to read by themselves. Not only through an oral 58:00transmission from, let's say, a [chacham] -- a master -- to less educated Jews,but also to have their own books and to read it when they want and how they wantto and to add personal commentaries and even mystical commentaries. So, it wasvery, very important also for the transformation of the Jewish culture, and thesecularization of the culture -- of the Jewish culture -- and the modernizationof the culture. And if we look now and we jump to the modern world, I think alsoit's very important -- and I'm very surprised, for example, when I go tobookstores in the States or -- to find all these manuals and guides about 59:00Kabbalah, about Judaism, about the way to transmit the fundamental values andthe texts. And so, there is a fascinating continuity -- the big problem beingwhat to transmit and how to transmit it and between the old Yiddish literature.Of course, it's different, but all this new literature you find in everybookstore, you see how this question of this transmission is really important,and it's a very central goal. And I feel really a link between the old,traditional world and the contemporary world. And the fact that you have allthis personal relation with classical texts, with tradition, and with all this 60:00production of manuals to give the fundamental classical texts into English orFrench or -- so, of course transmission is very important. And also, for theJews in this very -- I mean, difficult world to keep your own traditions, soit's -- I think books and transmission of classical texts -- and to study thetexts, the rabbinical texts and the classical texts -- the "Tsenerene," forexample -- is also very, very important. And you have a lot of translation, youhave a lot of books based on the same structure and on the same goal: to 61:00transmit the fundamental values of Judaism.
DS:So then, for my final question, I guess I'd like you to look into the future:
do the work that historians are not supposed to do and ask you about what youthink the future of this culture of transmission and of Yiddish is, and whatadvice, perhaps, you'd have for future Yiddish scholars or up-and-coming Yiddish scholars.
JB:I am pessimistic and optimistic both. Of course, Yiddish will be never, as
before, related to social-economic life centered on Yiddish as it was in -- soof course, with the Shoah and with the secularization and with thetransformation of the contemporary world, many, many parts of this civilization 62:00-- of this culture -- disappeared. But we have to be confident and we have to beoptimistic, optimist -- because you never know -- with culture, with language,with the new generation, what they are going to do with this treasure, thisfantastic and very rich culture. And for example -- I take this example ofParis, of the Center for Yiddish Culture, who is now very, very important, avery living place. And you have a lot, a lot of Jews who are coming back toYiddish -- learning, studying, speaking, having a social life around Yiddish. 63:00So, I won't say it's a very big -- it's difficult to say, to measure social --but it's very important, because you see that step by step and very slowly,these things are -- of course they are changing -- it's not the same way tolearn and to transmit, but still there is a need to transmit and also becauseit's a fabulous and very rich and extraordinary culture. So, when you teach andwhen you transmit to ignorants -- let's say, Jews who don't know anything about 64:00-- it's very amazing to see how fascinated they are and how easy to transmit --because it's so extraordinary, so rich. So, I am confident and I am very -- I aman optimist, because we don't know what will be the -- of course -- will be thefuture. But when you see, for example, a center like Medem and the Center forYiddish Culture, it's a very -- it's a miracle to have such a center -- a lot ofactivities and books and oral transmission and parents and kids. And also, inthe academic world, now in Europe, in the main capitals and main centers, youhave Yiddish studies, Yiddish scholars who are working on this field. And so, 65:00either the living tradition -- in the family, in the community, in the socialnetwork -- it's important, but -- and also, the cultural aspect and the academicpart of this transmission is also important. So, of course it's different -- notthe same -- but Yiddish is still there, and it's still transmitted. And we haveto be optimistic.
DS:Well, Professor Baumgarten, I want to thank you so much for speaking with me
and for taking the time. It was a terrific experience for me, and like I said, Igreatly appreciate it.