ELIZABETH SCHWARTZ AND YALE STROM ORAL HISTORY

CHRISTA WHITNEY: This is Christa Whitney and today is December 21st, I think.

ELIZABETH SCHWARTZ:Solstice.

YALE STROM: Winter solstice.

CW:Yes, and we're here in San Diego. I'm here with Elizabeth Schwartz and Yale Strom --

YS:Yale Strom [pronounced with a long O].

CW:Strom. Sorry, sorry.

YS:Long O. Yeah, that's okay.

CW:Elizabeth Schwartz and Yale Strom, and we're going to record a brief interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Do I have your permission to record?

ES:Yes.

YS:Yep. Avade [Of course]. (laughter)

CW:So, first I'm curious to hear the story of how you two met.

YS:Why don't you tell it (UNCLEAR)?

ES:Ah, a mayse [a tale]. Okay. So, I was living in LA and Yale was in New York. 1:00And I had somewhat recently broken up with a boyfriend my mother hated. And she came out to visit me, and we were at the art house cinema and there was a poster up there for "The Last Klezmer." And my mother said, "Oh, I saw this in New York." I said, "That's great, mom." "Oh, the filmmaker was there and he was talking and he was so smart. What a mentsh." I said, "That's great, mom." She goes, "Yeah, I gave him your number." And I hit the ceiling 'cause I said, "No! Don't give out my number to people!" And I said -- she said, "Well, did he call?" And I said, "No, fortunately, he didn't call." She said, "Okay! So, there's no problem and I'm sure you'll be very polite when he does call." And I put it out of my mind. But apparently, what had been going on that I had no idea about back in New York is these three women, my mother, her friend, and her 2:00friend's friend who was Yale's literary agent had been conspiring to put us together. So, my mother had gone to a screening of "The Last Klezmer" and she had been impressed with Yale. And she said to her friend that she was with, "I wonder if he's single." And Rhoda said, "Sheila, look around this room. We are all women with daughters. You're never going to be the first to get to him. Just forget it." So, what we pieced together afterwards is Yale went to his agents, and she said, "Yale, are you dating anybody?" And he said, "Nobody special." And she said, "Oh, my friend knows all of these eligible Jewish women," which was a lie. It was really only just me. So, Yale spoke to this mutual friend. And I'm going to tell them this part. He put her phone number in his book and he wrote 3:00in Swedish next to it, "Jewish women," because he figured if he had any women over and they looked in the book, the odds were they wouldn't know Swedish and they wouldn't know what he had written. And --

YS:Emes, emes [True, true].

ES:Yeah, so she gave Yale my number and when my mother came back from visiting me in LA, she said to her friend, "What's the matter with this guy? He didn't call?" So, the friend said, "Well, I'm not going to write to him, 'cause -- I'm not going to call him because that would be pushy, but I'll send him a note." So, she sends him a note and says, "Yale, I know how busy you are. Here's Elizabeth's name and number," on a separate index card. So, he took the card and he put it in his appointment book and he forgot about it. And he was lecturing in Florida and --

YS:Yeah, Sarasota.

ES:Sarasota. And it was New Year's Day and he was --

YS:Lecturing to eighty and ninety-five-year-old women. Jewish women. And I 4:00thought, Oh, man --

ES:No pickings there, huh?

YS:-- this is -- (laughter) is this how my life's going to be? (laughs) I mean, they're lovely people, but --

ES:But it was New Year's Day and he was lonely and he went to reach for the TV remote --

YS:Yeah.

ES:-- and he knocked his appointment book off the table and my card fell out. So, he said, "Oh, I'll call, she won't be home." And I was home, having just had a horrible New Year's Eve. And he said, "Hi, my name is Yale." And I said, "Yeah, I know who you are," which I guess doesn't sound very welcoming.

YS:No. (laughter)

ES:So, he said, "I'm going to be in LA next week 'cause my film is screening at the Palm Springs Film Festival. Do you want to have dinner?" And I said, "Well, when you get into town call me, 'cause I don't want to make any plans." So, I was really -- I don't want to use any off-color words. I was not very nice about it. (laughter) And, in fact -- then a friend called and said, "Let's go to the movies on Sunday." And I'm, like, "Great. This guy might -- I might have this 5:00blind date. And if he doesn't call -- let's hope he doesn't call, because if he calls, I have to go. But if he doesn't call, I can blow it off and let's go to the movies." But he called. And so, really, I have to say, I don't think either of us could have been less interested in that date, really, right? (laughter) But it --

YS:Well, blind dates -- and three thousand miles away from each other? That's a real blind date. (laughs) So --

ES:Yeah. So, we had the blind date and -- oh, so we had this blind date and I guess it went pretty well 'cause we went back to my apartment after dinner. And I was getting tea in the kitchen and he was sitting in the living room, and I had another dog at the time, T-Bone, olev-asholem [may he rest in peace], who was a great dog, but he was insane. So, Yale was sitting on the couch and T-Bone was on the back cushion, standing on his head. And I kept saying, "Is that bothering you?" And he's, like, "No, I love it!" And I said, "Really?" 'Cause 6:00I'm thinking, I don't let him do that, but it didn't seem to bother Yale, who it was bothering. But Yale said, "I have to leave tomorrow night. But before I go, tomorrow afternoon, I was going to go see 'The Madness of King George.' Do you want to go?" And I said, "Actually, I'm dying to see that film. Yeah!" So, four months later, Yale told me that he'd seen a list on the coffee table of film titles and the top ones were crossed out and that was the next one. And he hadn't known what it was, but he figured that it was the next thing I wanted to see -- but it took four months to confess that he didn't know what the film was. It was a great film.

YS:It was, yeah.

ES:But we had a great date and then that was it.

YS:Yeah, ot azoy [just like that].

ES:And actually, in two weeks, it's the twenty-second anniversary of that blind date.

YS:Oh, yeah, that's right.

ES:So --

YS:(laughs) Wow.

CW:Yasher-koyekh [Congratulations].

YS:(laughter)

ES:Indeed. Emes. (laughs)

YS:Take [Truly]. (laughter)

CW:And then, just -- we heard a little bit from you about how you were cajoled into performing together. (laughter)

YS:Right.

CW:And so, what has it been like for you two to be performing this and working on this work together?

YS:Well, on one very practical, artistic level, it's been very good. Hot Pastrami was a good band, I'm going to say, before Elizabeth was there. I did a few songs I sang. I have a -- okay, folky kind of voice. I can sing in tune. But it's the -- it's not a great timbre and I know it. I sing through a violin. So, when Elizabeth joined the band and her voice is an instrument, I knew, 8:00selfishly, this was going to really make us a lot better. 'Cause people -- first of all, people relate to singers. Yes, they like instrumentalists, but when you're playing a genre of folk music -- it could be Jewish, Kurdish, Israeli, Palestinian, whatever -- why? Because it emotes. We connect because of that -- we all have a voice and we can sing and we relate to words, it tells a story. So, I knew already, when I heard that voice, I said, "Wow, this is going to make us better." But it's been good. I'm a writer. I've gotten better because Elizabeth is a really good writer. I mean, I call her, because her mom really was -- her mother was the real grammar czarina, but she picked it up from her. (laughter) She's always correcting my English --

ES:For better or worse. (laughs)

YS:She corrects my English. I'm not always speaking the best of English. But it's a good voice. She's been a good person to bounce ideas off and so forth, 9:00and to work together -- and to be able to work with your best friend that happens to be the one that you sleep with, your spouse, (laughs) it's great. Now, I'm sure people who -- if this gets to make the -- if this doesn't make the cutting -- the edit, the cutting room floor, if it makes it in the edit -- people seeing this, are there sometimes some tense times? Sure. It's anybody -- good friends -- we're all, (laughter) we're -- no, no, no, we're people. So, can you yell and argue? Who doesn't?

ES:Never.

YS:What humans in the world don't? So, there's that. (laughter) But I think what's great is not only does she have good ideas and the talents that I said, but also, she won't bullshit me. If I'm doing a project or music or lyrics or something or film, she'll say, "No, this is where I think you've gone wrong," or 10:00"Here's how you can make it better." And it can hurt sometimes. But I know she's doing it, also, because it's constructive criticism, where some people can -- just to say they're jealous and they don't want to see you succeed. So, for all those reasons, it's been great. And to travel -- I've traveled to Eastern Europe many times by myself. But to travel with someone that has the same interests that I do now and to share those wonderful experiences, it makes those memories even stronger.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

ES:I would say when you're an artist that tours a lot, it can be lonely, 'cause it's hard work, and you're not in your own environment, and you're away from home. So, when I travel with Yale, I always like it better than if I go by myself, because I feel like I'm bringing one of the most important parts of my home life with me. And I'm never lonely and it just -- it's just always more fun 11:00to share things with someone that's your partner in crime, in life, in art and all those things, so -- and I always joke, too, because Yale is -- he works at such a prolific level in so many different media that I always say, if I didn't work with him, I would never see him.

CW:And do you have any favorite stories from the road?

YS:Well --

CW:Together?

YS:-- we probably -- which -- oh, okay, which one do you have?

ES:Well, it's a favorite story but it's not necessarily a happy story.

YS:What?

ES:Was actually the first time Yale took me to Romania. (laughs)

YS:Oh, yes.

ES:And we were -- it was cold and it was Romania and it was hardcore travel. We were -- it was over twenty years ago. We were young and hardy and I like to 12:00think --

YS:Yeah.

ES:-- we still are, but --

YS:Younger.

ES:Younger and hardier. And we were traveling from Iași to Cluj overnight by train in a couchette. And I don't know, I got vertigo, which I never had had before. And I woke up and I stumbled down to the public bathroom in a second-class Romanian train compartment. So, I think you can fill in the details there. But I thought, I'm going to be sick, and I got there (laughs) and -- I don't know what preserved me, but I'm, like, no, my face is not going near that toilet. And the next thing I knew, I passed out, which I had never done before. But I came to on the floor and I came staggering down the car going, "Yale! Yale!" And he came to the door, said, "What is it?" And I said, "I passed out!" And just as he said, "Oh, you didn't pass out," I passed out again and I fell into his arms. And I've never forgiven him, 'cause the last thing I remember 13:00before I blacked out again was him going, "Oy!" (laughter) as he caught me.

YS:Dead weight.

ES:Thank you, right. So, what can I say? I have a skinny husband, so -- (laughter)

YS:Yeah.

ES:So, that was probably our first traveling experience.

YS:Yeah. I have another one from Romania. I have a lot of fond memories from Romania, 'cause I've just traveled there so much and -- before I knew Elizabeth. 'Course now, with her yikhes [ancestry] as she -- as you already know, on her father's side is Romanish, Romanian. So, we were in Cluj with this Roma family and -- besides the people who are seeing this who know me from my Yiddish -- my work in the yidishe velt [Yiddish world], I've done a lot over the years in the Roma world, and particularly through the music, of course, with Roma musicians having played klezmer, et cetera. So, a wonderful family -- really became dear 14:00friends. And so, they said, We want to take you to this -- we're having a Roma party, some celebration. And we said, Yeah, of course we're going to come. We're with you and it'll be fun. So, we go in, we go with them. And I think Tallulah was with us, too. No --

ES:No, no, it was --

YS:Oh, oh.

ES:-- before Tallulah.

YS:Oh, was before Tallulah, okay.

ES:It was before we were married, even.

YS:Right. So, we go in --

ES:It was a packed hall.

YS:And it's so funny, was at a packed hall. There's food and loud music and smoke, cigarette smoke. And, in fact, we were the only two not smoking and I kept having to go outside to just get --

ES:Yeah, breathe.

YS:-- a little oxygen. But I remember, I was hungry and we're both vegetarians. And there wasn't a lot of vegetarian food. There was, I think, a little eggplant and they had these pickles that were -- and I love anything dill. So, I went for them and, oh, my God, it was like -- just a salt lick. It's like what kind of pickles -- it's like all brine. There's no cucumber. But anyhow, the part that 15:00I'm getting to is -- so, we're sitting there, this band's playing and all of a sudden, I hear over the loudspeaker, "We have a very special guest from California, this wonderful klezmer musician, Yale Strom! He will play some music!" And I'm looking and I looked at my friend, Carmen, and I said, "Oh, no. You didn't put 'em up to this, did you?" "Yale, they called you. I had nothing to do with this. I just said I had a friend who plays the violin, but" -- and so, I was really nervous.

ES:Yes. (laughs)

YS:First of all -- first, you're thinking, Well, this is a Roma band and they're all good musicians --

ES:You'd better bring it.

YS:She's going to set me up. And these people -- who am I? And we were probably one of the few, as they say, goyim, one of the few gadje [Romani: non-Romani] in the whole hall. So, I got up there and I told the guy, said the key of this tune. I started off a vamp, so they could listen. Of course, these guys have 16:00great ears. And it kicked tokhes [person's buttocks]. It was great. But I was -- I think I was playing even better than I can even play it now. It was -- the spirit came. I had to perform, so -- and I remember looking at you and she was just kind of saying, "Yeah, get --"

ES:Yeah.

YS:You got to do it now if you're going to do it.

ES:Right. He rose to the occasion, for sure.

YS:I rose to the occasion. So, that's a --

ES:But it was -- but the look on -- I mean, he was sheet white. He was so nervous, it was great. (laughs)

YS:Yeah, well, I wasn't expecting it at all.

ES:No.

YS:No, but we've -- yeah, I think -- Poland, let's see. Oh, we -- yes, we have one more story. We have a great one in Chişinău. Tell her -- so, we get -- so, this is her first time. It's my second time. This was her first time, in 2003. And so, we -- we'll cut to the chase. So, we're playing klezmer 'cause we're on a tour of Romania and at Moldavia, Moldava, Goldfadn, the whole yidishe teater [Yiddish theater] and people know the history of that region. Okay, great, so we go. We go and we're joined by wonderful -- the Kishinever -- or, no, they were 17:00called the Bessarabia Klezmer Band. Sadly, they are now broken up and I think most of them are in Israel. Anyway, we're there, the hall has no heat. Everyone's sitting with their winter coats on and hats.

ES:Well, it was the old Jewish theater

YS:It was the old -- yeah, it was the old Jewish theater, which was great to be in -- but they brought us there 'cause they knew it'd be special. And --

ES:But it was about forty-five degrees in there.

YS:But first of all -- so, we start playing. But we're starting to get warm and we start to slowly undress, remember? You started taking off your --

ES:Oh, I took off my first jacket, 'cause I had a jacket and a sweater and a down v-- I mean, it was freezing.

YS:Yeah.

ES:I took my jacket off, I --

YS:Yeah.

ES:-- yeah, I think they started catcalling. I'm, like --

YS:It was, "Rah!"

ES:-- really, I'm not going to get that far.

YS:(laughs) But then, afterwards, who was in the audience? And this -- I feel -- (laughter) 'cause not many people can say they've played for him -- was the great Yiddish writer who only passed away a few -- about six years ago -- Yekhiel Shraybman. What a perfect name, right? A writer. Yekhiel Shraybman was there with his wife -- what was her name? I can't remember now, but -- lovely 18:00woman. A nurse who became his wife, but a sweetheart of a lady. So, anyhow, we come out and Yekhiel's there -- of course, he had just come out with his newest book and people are hanging out with him a little bit, talking and then coming to us. And, of course, we wanted to pay our respects to this great Yiddishist shrayber [writer], this great writer. And then, what happens?

ES:Well, Yale was really talking to him, not I, because my Yiddish was not so conversational back then. I mean, this is thirteen years ago. And so, Yale and he were having an intense conversation for a long time and he inscribed two books to Yale. And we got back --

YS:To the --

ES:-- to the hotel and what he had written in the books was, "To Elizabeth Schwartz and her husband." (laughter)

YS:Oh, get that! Yekhiel Shraybman had the eye for the ladies. (laughs) So, 19:00that's a good story. But I'm so proud to have met him and been able to touch him as he obviously has touched me and many others.

CW:Great. Liz, I know -- how are you doing on time?

ES:I'm okay.

CW:You're okay?

ES:Yeah, I'm fine.

CW:Is there any project that you have worked on together you're particularly proud of?

YS:Many, but -- well, which one do you want to say?

ES:Well, we've worked on a few different projects in different media. I would say, really, to me, one of the ones I'm proudest of is "The Witches of Lublin" --

YS:Oh, I was going to say that.

ES:-- just because it's so unusual.

YS:Yeah. It's a radio drama. How many people are doing Jewish-Yiddish art in radio drama? Very few.

ES:Years -- the genesis of the project, actually, was -- unfortunately, as we were moving from New York, our dear friends Ellen Kushner and Delia Sherman were moving to New York, ironically.

YS:Both well-known writers in their own right, but -- fantasy and not Jewish stuff, but their own genres -- other genres.

ES:And so, we would go down to their apartment every couple of weeks and take their old -- their empty boxes so we could recycle them. And we were standing in the lobby and Ellen said, "Really, we three should work on a project together." And Yale said, "Well, why don't we do something in radio? Because that's the world you come from and that's really -- aside from writing music for radio shows, I haven't ever done anything in radio." And Ellen said, "Well, how about if we do something that's woman-oriented?" And I said, "Well, you know what? There's this research that Yale uncovered that's in the 'Book of Klezmer' about these rare instances in the late eighteenth century --

YS:Or actually, late seventeenth --

ES:-- 1797, eighteenth century --

YS:Well, we put it there but the fact -- I just -- so, the fact -- late seventeenth century.

ES:This is working together. Okay, where women actually -- women klezmers played in public. So, we took the kernel of that idea, because it was so unusual, and 21:00developed it into this audio drama called "The Witches of Lublin," about a family of women klezmers in Poland, in eighteenth century Poland, and sort of the struggles they face as women and as Jews with music. And, of course, there's some magical realism in there. And turned into a wonderful project. Tovah Feldshuh, Yelena Shmulenson, Neil Gaiman, Joanne Borts, my sweet Joanne, and a lot of wonderful actors did it and it won a lot of awards. But we also, then -- the director had the idea to create a CD of the music, which our label, ARC, was delighted about. But she said, "Let's do something interesting with the liner notes where they're not just in the book, but we hear them." So, ironically, the 22:00same conference where we'd met Tovah, we met the actress Miriam Margolyes. And so, I emailed her. I said, "Do you want to do this?" She said, "I'd love to." So, we have this ancillary CD of the music that we did from the play where Miriam does the -- kind of the living liner notes.

YS:Yeah.

ES:That was a wonderful project.

YS:Yeah, yeah, I enjoy it. And people have responded well to it and something that I -- hopefully, will be able to go around the world. It needs to be in many languages, 'cause it's a feminist story, it's a Yiddish feminist story. And, as you said, the magic realism. So, I think all --

ES:And lots of good klezmer music.

YS:Yeah, yeah. But it's an interesting fact, right? We wouldn't think of -- we know the whole thing: women, safety, rape, I mean, and kol isha [religious prohibition on men hearing a woman sing, lit. "women's voice"], Orthodoxy, and all the reasons why women weren't going into the art form, playing live music in 23:00front of a Jewish audience, let alone a non-Jewish audience. And here, I found, when I was doing -- in the YIVO archives, that -- these very short but clear mentions of women klezmers, who played in a group. Obviously, safety in numbers.

CW:So, I'm curious, how much Yiddish is in your daily lives?

YS:Well, I try to speak mostly to my daughter in Yiddish. Ever since she's come -- popped out. That doesn't mean I don't speak some English sometimes, because there are certain words I'm grasping for. So, I'm not going to say, "Wait a minute," get the dictionary. But I would say I'm speaking to her seventy-five, eighty percent in Yiddish. And I speak to the Shmendrik [looks down at the dog on his lap] here mostly in Yiddish.

ES:Yes.

YS:And she actually does respond, particularly when she wants a N-O-S-H. If I 24:00say that, oh, she'll -- her ears will prick up and she'll get very happy.

ES:And we speak to each other in Yiddish --

YS:Yeah.

ES:-- during the day.

YS:We'll say certain things -- to say --

ES:But we can't use it as the secret language, which is the tradition, 'cause the kid understands it, so --

YS:Yeah, yeah, so -- but the -- and so, the language -- yes, it's -- and constantly challenging myself to learn new vocabulary. I learned my Yiddish -- I learned Yiddish -- my Yiddish is more of a gas [street] Yiddish. It started off as a tsebrokhene [broken] Yiddish. I learned it from my bobe [grandmother] and I learned it, actually, going to the shtibl [small Hasidic house of worship] with my father in Detroit. My father came from an Orthodox background, Hasidic background. And so, he felt more comfortable in something that was about the gayst, the ruekh, the spirit, not about a fancy building and fancy furniture. He really liked tables and benches and stuff. So, my early years in Detroit, I went to literally what was storefront shuls or shtiblekh. And there, at these 25:00Orthodox shuls, the bokherim [unmarried young men], the boys my age came from frime hayzl [religiously observant homes] and I didn't, and their first language was Yiddish. So, if you're seven, eight, nine, ten, if you want to play and be one of the guys, you don't want to be an outsider -- so, after weeks, you pick up a language, 'cause they're only speaking in Yiddish. So, [BREAK IN RECORDING] my father said, "Okay, you're here for the Shema [Jewish daily prayer]. You can go out and play a little bit. But when it's time to leyen [read] the Torah, you got to be back in. And then, musaf [additional morning service on Shabbos and certain holidays], okay, you can go out and play again." But anyhow, so I'm constantly trying to improve it and learn. But it's part of who I am and my work. So, it's certainly a conscious part of my daily being, for sure.

CW:And anything that you're excited about working on right now that you want to talk about?

YS:Yeah. Well, yes. One thing that I've been working on for a while -- and 26:00slowly moving forth is -- we've been working on together, on a play about the life of Chagall. And, of course, he was steeped -- obviously, his art was steeped in Yiddish culture, but his language was Yiddish. He wrote poetry in Yiddish. He dreamt in Yiddish. And I've done a lot of research. We are very good friends with one of the grandchildren. And I say that -- we're not just an acquaintance. We're friends. We're really good friends. And so, this will be a collaboration. Elizabeth, myself, others, including our friend John Malashock, a choreographer. So, it's going to be dance, song --

ES:Both.

YS:-- acting, storybook. A musical, in English, with --

ES:Mostly.

YS:Mostly. Though, actually, now when I think about it, there is a scene -- there is one -- I wrote a lullaby, in Yiddish. And so, that's the project we're 27:00excited about. Theater is hard because it's lots of moving pieces and the gelt, the cost, is not cheap. If it's a one-man show, one-woman show, it's easier. But when you're talking twenty, twenty-five people, it's a little different. I have a project that -- actually, Elizabeth gave me the idea and I'm just starting to put the things -- and this is -- we're calling it -- well, we'll call it now -- the interim title, maybe it will stay: "The Hanukkah Consort," where I want to -- in pop culture in America, in Christian America, you, at this time of year, really -- starting, really, at Halloween time, all the way through January 1st, is Christmas songs of various kinds. And you hear it on the radio, very -- whether jingles or pop tunes or jazz. So, Elizabeth had this idea, 'cause I'm thinking I want to do something with some other musicians and she said, "Why not do an album of Hanukkah tunes? But not just done in the traditional way. Maybe 28:00bluegrass style, jazz, Django, Roma-style --

ES:And chamber-style.

YS:-- and chamber-style, klezmer-style, of course, Lad-- but also, Hanukkah traditions not just from the Ashkenaz. From the Sephardic, from the Mizrahi, from maybe the Indian, from the subcontinent, Ethiopian, Yemenite, and -- but make it all strings, so -- and working with musicians who are known as great fiddlers, jazz violinists, country, Texas swing. So, that's a project. And then, working with a chamber ensemble. So, that -- and the label, ARC, which is -- it's nice to say -- it's hard to get labels these days to want to produce klezmer music. They have accepted the proposal, so slowly, I'm doing the research and I hope sometime in 2017, we'll be recording that. So, that's a project, "The Hanukkah Consort," which will be stranger than -- but of all -- 29:00and maybe -- and 'cause that's a CD that can have a life, you would hope, many years. Hanukkah comes -- and not just for Jews. For anybody -- holiday music is -- so, that's a project. So, you know, and I'm constantly thinking of -- oh, and I do have one more project, yes. This is very important. So, it's a long story but I won't even get into that part. But I was able to -- I was given, by a Stoliner Hasid -- and my yikhes is a Stolin-Karlin Hasidim, Stolin being the small town outside of Pinsk --

[END OF INTERVIEW]