RUTH STARK ORAL HISTORY

CHRISTA WHITNEY:This is Christa Whitney and today is September 25th, 2017. I am here in New York City with Ruth Stark. We're going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Do I have your permission to record?

RUTH STARK: Yes, you do.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

CW:So, I want to start with a little bit about your family background. Where does your family come from?

RS:So, my family comes from the Kovno area of Lithuania, both sides of the family. But I was born here, and my parents were born here. And even one grandparent was born in the US.

CW:Do you know much about what they -- what the family was up to in Kovno?

RS:No. Not a hell of a lot. (laughs) You know, I know a fair bit about my grandparents when they were here, and I know that one of my grandfathers came here -- he was born in 1892 -- and came here and then fought in World War I. And he was missing for a bit. But I do not know what occupations they had. But I know they were from Kovno.

CW:So, about when did they come to America?

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

RS:All about roughly the turn of the twentieth century. Yeah. Most of them in that period. Yeah.

CW:And what do you know about what your grandparents' generation did here for work?

RS:Yeah, so my maternal grandfather delivered milk to the doorstep. And my 2:00grandmother was home with the kids. There were three kids. On my father's side, he was more kind of intellectual, but he owned a paper box factory, and he had some employees. And he also once ran for the state senate in Pennsylvania on the Eugene Debs ticket, I believe, (laughs) or something like that. And they were all in Philadelphia. In fact, my father's family did not come through Ellis Island; they came somehow through Philadelphia. So, that I do know. And none of them -- none of these folks were college-educated. You know, they were immigrants, so wouldn't've happened. Yeah.

CW:And were they frum [pious]?

RS:So, they were observant. And my father went to yeshiva through, like, elementary school. And they kept all the dietary laws -- actually, both sides of the family. But you would not call them frum. And I always joke that my father was antireligious, because when he was in yeshiva, he used to say, "I was the best student, and there was a prize for the best student, and instead they gave it to the son of some makher [big shot]," you know, blah, blah, blah. And that was an epiphany for him, and he said, "All done. All done." You know, "Not going to --" he almost didn't go into a synagogue after that. My mother was kind of areligious. But definitely Jewishly identified and serious about that, but not 4:00religion. And that actually had a lot to do with how I came to Yiddish, because my parents wanted me to have a Jewish education, but they did not want to join a shul. And there were two conservative shuls right in the neighborhood, and then there was this Workmen's Circle school. And so, they said, Okay! Done. We'll send you there. And it wasn't so much because of the Yiddish; it was an alternative that fit them better. Yeah. So.

CW:So, where in Philadelphia did you grow up?

RS:Oh. So, I grew up in the northwest part of Philadelphia, in an area that -- I think they call it something different now, but it used to be called West Oak Lane. And it was a lot of post-World War II tract houses, and the neighborhood 5:00was either Jewish or Catholic, and nothing in between. (laughs) So, the public schools were filled with Jews, and the Catholic school was the place, at least through eighth grade, for everybody else. So, that's just how it was. Yeah.

CW:Can you describe the home, what it looked like?

RS:Yes. So, it was a -- row houses -- I mean, not like brownstones here, but row houses that would be typically two stories and then a basement. And they had a big front yard and a big back yard. And there were just rows and rows and rows of them throughout the neighborhood. And they were all attached, like, I don't know, forty of them or something, at least in my neighborhood. And then, everybody would kinda run up and down the street, past all these stoops and 6:00things like that. So, yeah.

CW:Who was in the home -- your house -- growing up?

RS:Well, very boring. My mother, my father, and me. I'm an only child. (laughs) My grandmother lived in another part of the city. She lived in Logan, which was a traditional Jewish area. And then, my paternal grandmother lived with that family in the Miami area. So, it really was just the three of us. No extended family. (laughs)

CW:And what about the inside of the home? What was the setup?

RS:A lot of books. Not Yiddish books, but books, books, books. My father was a high school English teacher, had a master's in English. Very serious about books. And a lot of music. My parents were just lovers of classical music and 7:00opera, and we had a piano. I did almost burn it down with some Hanukkah candles once, but -- anyway. But very -- I don't know, seems ordinary to me, yeah? Kind of crowded with stuff, because my father liked to collect stuff.

CW:And what was Jewish about your home?

RS:So, I think it was not -- I guess there was some conversation that had some Jewish overtones, I would say, and a little bit of Yiddish. But because we were not religious, I would say the home was not so -- it was not so Jewish, you know? But everybody knew we were Jewish; the neighbors knew we were Jewish, the 8:00friends knew we were Jewish. So, there was an identification, but not through religion and not really through politics, because my parents were not part of the Jewish Labor Bund or you know, any of those organizations.

CW:So, what were the languages that you heard growing up?

RS:English and English. I mean, a little bit -- a few words of Yiddish, but -- so I did not grow up in a Yiddish-speaking home. And -- I'm trying to think. The kids who I went to school with in the Arbeter Ring -- mostly like me. They were -- it was a mix. There were some who definitely grew up in Yiddish-speaking homes, but it was quite a mix. And in my home, not really so much. Just little 9:00snippets, you know? Because my parents were part of that generation that was really very assimilationist, and they didn't think about it; it just was. Yeah.

CW:Did you have a favorite holiday growing up?

RS:I don't know why, I was always kind of partial to Pesach. Just maybe because of the ritual, and I liked that. So, when I was going to the Workmen's Circle -- and they still do this -- they had a third seder. You know, third seder is not the thing, but they did it. And I didn't know; I just thought, Oh, everybody does a third seder. And it was a huge event, a huge event with a lot of ritual, 10:00and it was a big honor if you got to sing and to recite and so on. And they would do it in some fancy hall and whatever, and there would be a little bit of Manischewitz wine, and it was (UNCLEAR). So, I was very partial to Pesach. Yeah. Although, we did not -- (laughs) we weren't very observant, so I would continue eating bread. And I remember I would go to school and bring my bread, and my friends would look at me like, Why aren't you bringing matzah? I said, "Well, I don't eat matzah at home, so why should I fake it?" And so, that was something I remember doing. (laughs) But that was a holiday I liked. Yeah.

CW:So, where -- I want to talk about this Arbeter Ring school --

RS:Yeah.

CW:-- a little bit. So, where was it?

RS: So, it was about three or four blocks from my house, on a street called 11:00Thouron Avenue. And it was actually right next door to a Jewish community center, where we -- one of the places (laughs) we didn't belong. And so, it was walking distance. And I would basically go -- initially it was just on Sunday, and then it was Sunday plus, I don't know, Monday afternoon and Wednesday afternoon. So, it was very close to home. And then, later, when I went to mitlshul [high school], which was junior high school and up, that was in Center City, Philadelphia. So, two of us used to take a bus and go together, on Saturday, by the way -- and that was the higher education. Yeah.

CW:So, what were the kinds of things that you remember learning at shule [secular Yiddish school]?

RS:Well, so I remember -- first of all, the first teacher was the music teacher, 12:00a guy named Maury Helsner, who eventually gave a whole lot of sheet music, actually, to the Book Center. And he basically reached out to this primarily English-speaking group through music, because he would teach us a nign [melody], you know, and we would just not have to know any words, just get into the music. And that was really very important.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

RS:So, we learned how to read and write and speak, and -- so I found this book that I had forgotten all about, so "Baym lernen yidish [While learning Yiddish]." It's a workbook for beginners, by Nat Zumoff, who was my first teacher in the non-music part. And you know, you're little kids, so you learn all the letters, and you learn basic words, and then you paste a picture of the 13:00things, and -- I don't remember this, really, but this is how we learned. And so, music first and words second. You know, it wasn't like when you take in college, you learn conversational X. It just wasn't like that. You would learn things, words, and then you would kind of put them together. And we did a lot of writing and reading. And I have to say, that has stuck with me better than some of the conversational stuff, which I got better at only when I went to summer camp, because it was very simple things that we did. But I liked it, 'cause I was the kind of perverse kid who liked -- the more school, the better. I did 14:00once forget to go to the Yiddish school after school, and I cried bitterly. My mother said I just cri-- 'cause I had just forgotten, and I just went home to play. And then, two hours later, I said, "Ah, I missed it!" And I was crying, and -- so.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

CW:I'm curious if you can think back to what you -- what were your thoughts about Yiddish growing up?

RS:I sort of -- yes. I remember that most of my friends were going to Hebrew school, and they hated it. And I was going to Yiddish school, and I loved it. So, I felt very special that I was enjoying myself, and I didn't have to go to services, (laughs) so I kinda had everything that I liked. Now, I didn't know 15:00what was wrong with -- why I wouldn't like services. But my friends didn't like going to services. So, I remember that. When I got a little bit older, this was the time when bas mitzvahs -- not even bat mitzvahs, bas mitzvahs -- were first coming into vogue. But we didn't belong to a shul. So, they had an articulation agreement of some sort. And that was -- then I felt a little bit disadvantaged. But they did this thing, and I got the training, and of course it was all Hebrew and stuff that I didn't understand anything that I was saying. And so, that was kind of weird. You know, I think that made me feel a little bit other. But by and large, I felt that I was getting something Jewish that I liked. I didn't 16:00know why I liked it, I just liked it -- and my friends all around me were getting a kind of Jewish education that they disliked. So.

CW:Do you remember any writers or stories that you were exposed to during that education that were meaningful?

RS:Yes. So, "Oyb nit nokh hekher," Peretz -- that was a big deal for me. I think Peretz was my (laughs) favorite; I don't know why. I mean, Sholem Aleichem, of course, but that I remember because it was hard to understand what it meant, philosophically, and it was not -- I mean, you could understand the words and not know -- then you had to think about what the story was about. And so, that I 17:00remember. I think most of the sort of real reading was at the higher level, because you couldn't read a book in elementary school. A little bit later, we used to have a lot of history, yidishe geshikhte [Jewish history], and we had a special book for that, and then we had a Hebrew book, and we had a Yiddish conversational kinda thing. So, we kinda had the mix. And I do remember that the Hebrew was in the background. It was sort of the last thing. It wasn't, like, absent. But they had to work hard to find a teacher to do the Hebrew because the teachers all did the Yiddish. They were very committed. But the Hebrew was kind 18:00of, Oh, we should be doing this too. But it wasn't the mainstream of what they were doing.

CW:Where were the teachers from?

RS:Okay, so there was a -- Maury Helsner probably was born here. There was a guy, Sender Yulo. He was definitely born in Europe. He had an accent. And Nat Zumoff did not have an accent. So, he either was born in the US or came as a very young child. I think in New York, it was a different mix. They would be more from the Old Country. But not my experience.

CW:Did you know many refugees? You know --

RS:Not so many. There was one girl who I went to mitlshul with, and I think her 19:00sister had come from Europe, and maybe she was born here. But no, I would say actually not. Not at that stage. Not until I went to Camp Hemshekh, and then they were all refugees, and I was the oddball.

CW:So, growing up, how much did you know about the war, about the Holocaust? How much --

RS:I think I was aware. I think people were aware. I mean, this was also the time of the Eichmann trial, and that was very big in the news. So, I think there could not have been an American Jew at that time who was unaware. And maybe the knowledge was not organized, but people knew. And everybody had relatives, 20:00including I had relatives, who were lost in the war, and stories from -- you know, my father used to be the one who would address the letters, and he always remembered the address and where he addressed it, and then they stopped hearing from them. So, everybody had something. Even if you were not a refugee, people knew something.

CW:So, how did you end up going to Camp Hemshekh?

RS:Oh. That was -- well, a great accident. So, when I went to mitlshul, which was really 'cause I liked school and I liked Yiddish, I was exposed to a whole different group of people, many of whom were refugees. And they were all going to Camp Hemshekh, and I was their friend, and they said, Well, why don't you go to Camp Hemshekh? And I had gone to another summer camp, and I -- another Jewish 21:00camp -- and I liked it there. But they --

CW:Which one was it before?

RS:That was something called Camp Green Lane. Something outside Philadelphia. And so, I think I ended up going partly because I was friendly with Sarita and Mark Russ, Moishe Russ, and Phil Yucht and Jack Karch. You know, all of these people were roughly my contemporaries. And also, aside from the Yiddish, there was the aspect that the camp was not so exclusively focused on sports. 'Cause I was not good at sports. And so, the idea of having something that had a different mix was very attractive to me. So, I talked -- I pitched it to my parents, and they sent me. I mean, I was already going to camp, so that was -- 22:00you know. And I have to say that going to Camp Hemshekh was really transformative for me, in many, many different ways. It got me to meet kids from New York. It got me to meet kids who were not born here, for whom Yiddish was their first language. It improved my Yiddish. It got me much more immersed. Never great, because it was not my first language. But the richness of what they did there. Everybody was trying to speak Yiddish -- you know, we would go through these things where everybody would try to speak all Yiddish, all the time. Which for most of the people was hard to do, but we wanted to do it. We wanted to do it. And also, it was a place of idealism in terms of social justice. Very out there because of the Jewish Labor Bund and all of that stuff. 23:00And so, that was really important. I mean, I went there for five years. I loved the place. And then it was kind of broken down, and we were rather misbehaving and this, that, and the other. But it was -- it was a great time. It was really great. So.

CW:Can you describe a typical day?

RS:Yeah. So, we would start by -- we would all line up at the flagpole, and we would start, and everybody would say, Khavershaft [Camaraderie]! And that was how you started your day. And they would make announcements, and they -- it would be in Yiddish and so on. So there was, like, a gathering of all the campers and counselors. That's how we would start. And then, we would go eat together. And all of the Yiddish names of the foods were kind of thrown around. 24:00It was sort of part of learning, but just it was part of that. And then, we'd have to go and clean up the bunks, and then we would have maybe two periods of something sports, and then we'd have lunch, and then we'd have some more stuff -- and there was -- pretty frequently, I don't remember exactly if it was every day, but there was a period of Yiddish learning in the camp. And even the -- you know, in traditional camps you would have color war, this, that, and the other. And we had teams made up of -- there was one section where it was different holidays, different -- you know, there was Pesach, Purim, whatever. There was different -- Sukkos, whatever. And then, there was another one where it was 25:00different countries. And it was everything in Yiddish translated, and there would be something about a writer who was the head, and everybody would be learning all about that writer. So, it was summer camp, but with quite a twist. And a lot of very idealistic stuff that would not have been, I think -- well, was not in my prior summer camp. Yeah.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

CW:So, can you say a little bit more about who the people were there, who the -- other --

RS:Yes.

CW:-- campers and teachers?

RS:Yes.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

RS:All right. So, I located the little brochure from the "Hemshekh banket [banquet]," 1965. And so, there were lots of people whom I now know -- or at 26:00least know of, but often know -- who have become leaders in the Yiddish world. So, the director in that year was Michael Baran, Mikhl Baran. And he was kind of a tough cookie but very committed and tried to keep us in line, not always successfully. Gabe Ross was the head counselor in that year, and I'm friendly with him now. Elliott Palevsky. And so, lots and lots of people. And I did chuckle when I saw that the arts and crafts counselor was Danny Libeskind. Not Daniel, but Danny Libeskind. I remember him. So, the leadership was mostly but 27:00not exclusively people associated with the Jewish Labor Bund. But there were other people who just liked summer camp and wanted to do it. And there was -- I guess most of the people were from New York. Very heavily Brooklyn and the Bronx; in the Bronx, from the Amalgamated. That was, like, the place. And then, there was a contingent from Philadelphia, some of the people I mentioned: Phil Yucht and Jack Karch and Sarita and Moishe Russ, were my good friends. And then, there was a big contingent from Canada, Montreal and Toronto. So, there were those groups. So, primarily New York, as you would expect; it was upstate in New York. And I went when it was in Hunter Mountain most of the time, and then the 28:00last year in a place called Mountain Dale. And I would say that most of the campers and many of the counselors were immigrants. The campers -- my contemporaries were mostly born in the United States, but their first language was Yiddish. And there were many, many children of Holocaust survivors. And that was really new to me. So, there was a very big observance and a monument that had been designed and built by Danny Libeskind -- it was a mosaic; it's gorgeous thing that I remember very well -- that was in commemoration of the Holocaust. And for me, not having personal, really close, those experiences -- they're 29:00having this thing, and I go, and people are crying their eyes out. And they're solemn, and there were people -- there were kids who were -- with red bandannas, and they were the guards over this monument, and then there were certain songs that we sang and this, that, and the other. So, that really blew me away the first time, because I had nothing to base it on, and it was like -- I could only feel what they were feeling secondhand, you know? And that -- I had to kind of think about what that meant. So that was a very big deal. Obviously not what you'd expect (laughs) normal summer camp. Yeah. So.

CW:And what about Friday night?

RS:Oh. So, Friday night we would all dress in white, and we had a sort of commemoration, but it was not religious. It was like -- this was for Shabbos. I don't even know if we even said that. I just don't remember. But, you know, there was a demarcation that was observed. And it was observed in some of the songs and certain events and the way we dressed. Yeah. Yeah. It was very nice.

CW:And what do you remember about felker yontef [holiday of nations, lit. "folks' holiday"]?

RS: Okay. So, what I described not so well was the -- there were several 31:00different events, competitions. And yes, the yontefdike [celebratory] take, I guess -- each team represented a holiday. And the idea was that the (laughs) holidays were competing for, I don't know, preeminence. And everybody would learn all about their holiday. And of course, every year it would be a little different, so you'd kinda come around and learn everything. But it was, "What's so great (claps hands) about Pesach?" (laughs) Or, "What's so great about Purim?" or whatever it was. And everything would be -- people would figure out how to dress in that -- for that holiday. Or, what were the observances? Or, who were the poets who wrote about that holiday? And I do remember that a lot of -- 32:00we would make up a play. That was, like, the big event, big competition, at the end. I mean, there would be sports and this, that, and the other. But the really top thing would be a play that we would construct. And it would be partly in Yiddish and partly in English. And sometimes there would be a poem or a bit of prose that we would speak in Yiddish and then translate. And I did some of that. It was really very challenging, but very enjoyable, to try to do that. And the groups would stay up really late at night and make it work, and then you'd practice and it would be terrible, and then you would try to make it work. And it was really an honor, considered an honor, to be chosen as a camper captain or as a counselor ca-- you know, to sort of lead the troops. And it was a big deal. 33:00And there would be -- there was sort of a college bowl part of it. I don't know if that had that theme, but there were all these kind of stuff. Yeah.

[break in recording]

CW:Can you say a little more about how that experience was transformative for you, as you said?

RS:Right. I think it really -- I guess it was immersive, and it was eight weeks of the summer of all Yiddish, all the time, in contrast to going as this after-school thing. And also, it had the element of being surrounded by people who were really into Yiddish and who were terrific as musicians or as scholars 34:00or -- you know, who just knew all sorts of stuff. It was very inspiring to have that. I mean, I went to a public school and had all these friends of different types and so on, and there's great value in that. But this was not just all Jewish kids; it was all Yiddishists. And I think it also gave me a political perspective that I did not have. I mean, this was a lefty kind of camp, and my family was kind of -- I guess mainstream Democrats and this, that, and the other. But they were not of the Left, even though my grandfather ran for the state senate on the Debs ticket. But they -- that is just not what they were. 35:00So, that was also, I think, transformative, to see what that was about. And to see how -- in the last year or two, when I was about to start college and so on, it was important for me to see a different way of -- for Jews to be Jewish that was not necessarily through religion, and in fact, I would say, was kind of antireligious. We used to have debates with the Zionist camp down the road, and they were (makes shuddering noise) very -- very emotional. So, that was important to experience. And that has really stuck with me. And when I think 36:00about my attitude toward Judaism and what it means to be Jewish, it was formed in those teenage years. And I've experienced other things since, but this is deeper. And I think -- I mean, the language and the literature was always a big part of it, but it's really Yiddishkayt kind of -- you know, that's -- it's the whole package. And I guess having that experience when I started, fourteen years old, it was a great time (laughs) just going through high school to be -- it was just that formative time. And just got lucky. Yeah.

CW:Before we move on from those years --

RS:Right.

CW:-- I'm curious about your relationship -- or thoughts, whatever -- about 37:00Zionism and Israel as you were growing up.

RS:I think that my overall family attitude would have been supportive of Israel, but in a sort of mild way is the way I would put it. In other words, it was not as if we were out protesting or even prob-- I don't know if we were buying Israel bonds or whatever. And when I went to Camp Hemshekh, a lot of the -- a lot of my peers and counselors were really very critical of Israel and Zionism. 38:00You know, they were Jewish Labor Bund. And so, they were completely unabashed, and they had a lot of reasoned arguments as to, We want to be Jews, we're in America, and we don't need to all make aliyah to be Jewish. And that -- and this would not be anti-Zionism, but, We don't need to be religious to be first-class Jews. So, that was a very strong strain. And I remember that maybe kind of the beginning of college, there were some people I knew from the socialist youth 39:00groups, and some of them were kind of in the process of becoming neocons. And they used to bait me about, Well, you can't be against Israel, can you, and this and that and the other. And it was a very hard thing, because in camp, it just was not a question. People were not so much anti-Israel -- some were, I guess probably -- but it was, This is not who we are. We are something else, and we hold our heads up high without be-- we are Americans, and we are Yiddishists. And it was like, That's the package. And furthermore, it was well known that Israel had basically banned the use of Yiddish, and for all the reasons that we know. And there was a lot of anger about that. And it was like, Well, this is 40:00unfair. How can you prohibit a language that people speak? And when my parents went once or twice to -- as tourists, to Israel, they didn't speak any Hebrew. And they would speak Yiddish to all the cleaning people; it worked just fine, you know? (laughs) So, that was a little bit hard to take.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

CW:So, you're talking about Zalmen Mlotek.

RS:So, one of the things that Zalmen would do, along with Julie Spiegel -- who was one of the Montreal people, and they were good friends -- kind of, I don't know, off the cuff, and I think it was part of -- like, the end of these Friday night things, they would just go into free association mode and start playing 41:00things. And he would just sit down at the piano, and they'd be singing their lungs out, and everybody would be singing and making stuff up and singing songs we knew and getting everybody to sing. And this is, like, as a fifteen-year-old or a fourteen-year-old or something or other, and it was just so much fun. And it would just go on for hours. Just out of the blue and just in -- you know. So, that was something I remember.

CW:Anything else from Hemshekh or shule that you want to add?

RS:No, probably not.

CW:Okay.

RS:Nothing hits me right now.

CW:So, as you went on to college, can you give me an overview of your education, 42:00just sort of listing where you went --

RS:Yes.

CW:-- so we can be oriented?

RS:So, when I graduated high school in Philadelphia, I went to an all-girls public school, Philadelphia High School for Girls. And I went my first year to Barnard College. And it was not for me. I mean, I did well there, and I loved being in New York -- but I wanted to do science, and it was not -- it was kind of very separate from Columbia in those days, and it was not for me. So, I transferred to Cornell, went up to the wilds of Ithaca, and I majored in chemistry. I think I -- very quickly. I wanted to major in either chemistry or economics; I majored in chemistry. It was tough, but it was for me. I liked it. And then, I went straight to grad school for a PhD in physical chemistry at the 43:00University of California San Diego, where the weather was far better. And it was kind of a new school, relatively new school, so that was good. It wasn't, like, entrenched. And I had some great mentors. And then, I did a postdoctoral fellowship, which is kind of required and important to do if you're gonna have an independent career, particularly as an academic. So, I did that at MIT. So, I came back across (laughs) the country, lived on the outskirts of Boston for two years. That was really very, very good. And then, I got my first academic position as an assistant professor of chemistry at Amherst College. And since then, I moved on to the City University of New York, and I've been on two campuses there. But I've continued as a chemist. And actually what I do now is -- it would be called molecular biophysics, so it's very interdisciplinary. It's 44:00still chemistry; it's still geeky physics-y things. But the targets that we study are problems in biology. So, how the skin of plants protects them, how fatty acids are shuttled around the body, how melanin pigments protect your cells -- things of that nature, but from a very physical point of view. Now, when I went to Amherst College, one of my colleagues knew that I spoke some Yiddish, I guess -- you know, Jewish guy, and he knew I spoke some Yiddish. And that was how I got involved with the Book Center, because he knew some-- his wife was on staff at UMass, and she had a friend who -- in whose living room the Book Center was begun. I think his name was Jules Piccus, and he just sort of 45:00set me up. They wanted some people to start this, you know, Come to his living room, and we're gonna discuss this. And that's where I met Aaron. Definitely the yunger man [young man]. And it was just a bunch of academics. Nobody knew how to run an organization.

CW:So, what was -- can you talk about that meeting? What was your first impression of Aaron?

RS:Well, I thought he was very earnest and very idealistic, but I think nobody thought it would work. (laughs) And everybody wanted it to work. But it was -- and not -- I mean, even the older people were not so old. The more mature -- the adults in the room. I was sort of more one of the kids. But -- I think we were 46:00very taken by his enthusiasm and his vision, even from word one. And it was, like, impossible to naysay anything because Aaron was such a special person. And even though I would say that most of us would've viewed the prospectus as very poor, we said, Okay, we'll try it. And maybe part of that was naïveté, because we didn't know what we were getting into and what you needed to run an organization. But we just -- everybody said, Yes, okay, we're doing it. And this must have been early 1980, I think? Something like that. And it was just in his living room. There was a white carpet that I remember and a big piano, or a 47:00piano, I don't -- and it was just getting together to do something.

CW:Do you remember who else would've been there (UNCLEAR)?

RS:You know, probably Haim Gunner was there. There was a -- I don't remember his name. There was a guy from UMass who was a literature specialist, a Jewish literature specialist. I would recognize the name, but I really do not remember. I don't remember that there were people from others of the Five Colleges at that point. But Jules Piccus. It was definitely his house. And Haim was very early on. Rich Alpert was in charge of money for a while, but maybe a tiny bit later. And I don't think Penina was there, but she came on very -- pretty early, but 48:00probably not at that first meeting. There is no written record. (laughs) I don't think. I don't know. Aaron would have to tell you that.

CW:So, do you remember what the pitch was?

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

RS:"I'm a graduate student --" "I" meaning Aaron "-- and I'm trying to learn Yiddish. I'm doing my master's, and I don't have books. I can't get the books to learn what I need to learn. And now I'm finding out that the books are spread all over the place and that the people who have the books are not gonna be with us forever." It was to save the books, and it was, you know, Here's an emergency, that students want to learn Yiddish, and they do not have the books in which -- you know, the paper books -- in which to learn. That was it. That 49:00was really it. And all of the subsequent things about spreading the education, opening up the books, that came much later. I think for a considerable period of time it was, "Let's save the books before it's too late," and "How do we do this?" and "How do we collect them?" and all of that. And I do remember -- you know, the approach that Aaron took was very different from the other Yiddish organizations, some of which I knew about from my time at Hemshekh. And they were not delighted, in my recollection, because here was this upstart 50:00organization, and many people in the organization were not native speakers. And Aaron is not a native speaker. He learned all this great stuff. And I remember a meeting, I don't know, twenty-five years -- a while ago, in New York. This was when they were gonna go to Russia, when he and Kenny Turan went. On the run-up to that and when it was being planned, there was some articulation -- I don't know if it was with the Workmen's Circle, I just don't remember -- but there was a big meeting. And Aaron asked me to come with him. And he had to pitch this. And of course, the organization was quite successful then. But we were arguably 51:00in competition with all of these collection of dying organizations. (laughs) And we walked in, and I don't remember all the names of the people, but I remember that among them was the father of one of my ex-boyfriends from summer camp, who was head of one of these organizations, and there were people that I knew from here and there and the other. And the striking thing to me -- among other -- making the pitch, which turned out well, was that they were testing Aaron, I thought. "Can you speak Yiddish?" Like, he was speaking -- he was making his presentation in English, and they were switching to Yiddish, I think -- I 52:00thought -- to test it. So, then he spoke Yiddish. Too bad on you, you know? And it was just such a dynamic. It was like, they wanted to feel that the Yiddish Book Center was not Yiddish enough. And they couldn't do a damn thing. They were a mess, and we were not a mess, but they wanted to be the true Yiddishists, the pure Yiddishists, purists, whatever. And in the end, they were okay with this project be-- and ma-- you know. So, it was a weird kind of dynamic that I remember. But I think that there was such a -- at the beginning, as I said, it was a bunch of academics in a room. And that was the board for maybe five years or something. And it was a big struggle 'cause it was just a big struggle, and 53:00the first building was in Florence, Massachusetts. And what I recall is an unheated building. And we would go for meetings and have our gloves on, and the staff were working with their gloves on and their coats on, (laughs) and there was just -- it was -- but that was what we could do. And it was just such a struggle. And part of the reason, perhaps, was the composition of the board was not (laughs) appropriate. I mean, we had to evolve and figure out who should be on the board and how do we raise money. So, I was trying to remember, and I did remember, there were two key people who helped us financially. One was Sidney Berg, who was someone who just called Aaron out of the blue from Long Island and 54:00offered him money, and he continued helping us tremendously. He just believed in the project. And the other was a woman named Sonya Staff, who also -- you know, these were board members, and they were characters, each of them in different ways. But they just believed in it. And I have to think that as brilliant as Aaron is and as brilliant as some of the staff were, we would not -- we were always on the edge. We were in debt; the staff were not being paid for long periods of time; Aaron was, I believe, not getting completely paid.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

RS:We had to be in buildings that did not (laughs) charge rent, because there was no money for rent. I mean, we had a situation once where there was a man and 55:00wife whose name I don't remember now who had pledged a gift of a hundred thousand dollars. And it was huge. And then, the man died, and his wife was not interested, and she reneged on the gift. And this was, like, a huge disaster. What are we going to do? And so, everything was hand to mouth. And so, the places I remember after that, there was the school in Amherst, this school that wasn't being used. And then, eventually it was being used, so we had to leave. And then, there was the mansion. I don't know if you ever saw the mansion. The mansion was this big yellow house on the Mount Holyoke campus. And I remember 56:00that by that time, there was kind of a joke that the -- that each of the Five Colleges, none of them very Jewishly oriented, were now in competition for who would host the Yiddish Book Center. And so, they had this -- I mean, they had been small, and then they had all this room. And I think they did have to pay the utilities, so that was a bit of a challenge. But it was this big old mansion on -- I think it was on Route 116. And so, they were there for quite a while. So, it was quite -- and all of that before the building that we're in now.

CW:Yeah. So, I want to back up to this living room with the white rug --

RS:Yes. (laughter)

CW:-- a moment. Do you remember what your initial reaction was when you heard about this project to collect, to save, Yiddish books?

RS:Well, I thought it was very important. I think I was uncertain about the true demand for the books. Because even though there was continuously a vibrant Yiddish educational infrastructure and all of that in Montreal, that was not so evident in New York or other -- certainly not other places in this country. So, it seemed like the right thing to do. But the idea that there were -- there was 58:00an audience of students out there clamoring for these books was not so clear. It didn't really bother me, but it was a -- to me, it was an open question. Because of the time in which it occurred. And I think the other part of it was just a logistical worry that, How the hell are we gonna do this, you know? How are we going -- and, you know, it wasn't until we started really working with Aaron that we found that very quickly that he had a million ideas and just ba-ba-ba-ba-ba, you know, and he'd always have something creative to come up with and how to interact with people and how to put together what was needed. So, he didn't have to have the training; he just would figure it out. And people 59:00who worked with him. And he would inspire them, and then they would be figuring things out. So, despite the many, many challenges, it just snowballed in the sense that you started to see things work, and you said, Oh! Oh my God, it worked. You know. So, really very ad hoc in my head because I wasn't planning.

CW:And was there a formal ask for you to join the board, or how did that work in the very beginning?

RS:Oh, gosh. Well, it was pretty informal. I guess if you showed up at that meeting and then you didn't run away (laughs) that you were part of it. But I think the format was that the initial board was one faculty representative from 60:00each of the Five Colleges. And at Amherst College, I was it. So, that was very simple. And it was only a little bit later that we started bringing on a different demographic and different skills, and it all matured with time. Certainly the first five years was, I think, mostly academics who knew nothing about raising money or whatever. And we just kind of made our way and tried to do it. And we used to -- I mean, we did used to meet -- Joe Marcus was the first who was really organized. And we would meet for breakfast at -- I think at the 61:00Lord Jeffery Inn, a little unlikely (laughs) place for that. But we used to meet once every month or couple of wee-- I don't remember. But he would have eight o'clock meetings. And I was like, (makes unhappy noise). But, you know, it was like, Let's get started! Why not? We gotta get started. And then, we would go off to our regular jobs. And so, that was the first attempt to kind of professionalize. And I think it was just very natural to change the composition as needed. So.

CW:Do you remember people early on who did run away when they sort of heard this crazy idea?

RS:No. No. Not really. I think there were people who ran the summer program at 62:00the beginning who then moved on to something else and so on. But I don't really think so. I think it was really irresistible. And some of the people who are no longer really active with the organization, they turn up at events. I see them, so they're not -- you would not say that they've turned away. And I think that also the organization we are now is very different than what they were part of. And so, they marvel at that, and they're excited about it. So, I think people will kinda have this reaction, Well, who would've thunk it, kinda thing. And I wouldn't say since I've been involved all the time that would not be my 63:00reaction. But, yeah. Especially those who live in the Amherst area. You know.

CW:So, people ask this all the time, and I'm curious what your answer would be: why did the Yiddish Book Center end up being in that area?

RS: (laughs) Well, I think it was really because Aaron wanted it to be in that area. I think partly it was just a personal decision that he wanted to live in that area that he loved. But more substantively, I think he wanted it to be a 64:00little bit removed from the fray in New York. And if you imagine what I told you about these -- what I'll call old-time Yiddish organizations, all of which were struggling, to try to do what he did and what we did in that environment would have made it much more difficult. In some ways, it would have made it easier because the people that you want to bring together would've been proximal, and recruiting staff in Amherst, I think, has its challenges. But at the same time, if you are new and you have a new vision -- brand -- I hate that word -- but if you have something new, and you are in the midst of an established bunch of 65:00groups, it strikes me as not the best way. Now, I don't exactly know that that was the thinking, but in retrospect, that seems sensible. And I think -- people often would ask, and maybe they're still asking, Why do you have it way out in Amherst? I think it's still a question worth asking. I don't think it should be brushed aside. But that's just now the way it is.

CW:So, going back to the first few years -- let's say the first five years -- of the organization, back when it was the Yiddish Book Exchange --

RS:Yes, yes.

CW:-- what did it mean to be a board member? What were your responsibilities?

RS:So, I think it meant a little bit that you would let people know about the organization and just -- it was not very formal. We did not have committees. We were only a few anyway. And we did not have -- I mean, we would get together -- I don't remember how often it was -- but you'd get together and try to solve the problems (laughs) that were plaguing you right then. And there would be money problems. I don't think we were ever asked for money. I mean, if you could, you would. But that was not what it was about. It was like, Well, what kind of -- who do you know who could help us with this problem, and can you help get it going? And is there some assistance we can get from your college, and things 67:00like that. And so, it was very nuts and bolts. I mean, the board has always been a working board. It's never been honorific, like, Oh, I'm on this board and that board and that -- I mean, this is the only board I'm on, and that's just fine, because you do something. And I think part of the role of the board has always been to be a sounding board, to -- if some idea comes forth and we are skeptical, it's our obligation to speak up and say so. And that's always been understood. On the one hand, I think the board is often really blown away by the brilliance of what is proposed, but we're not uncritical. And I think that's 68:00been longstanding. And, you know, I guess the one who's been on almost as long as me who I would point to in this regard is Penina Glazer because she conceptualizes, gets to the heart of, Well, here's the issue, and why is this wrong-headed, or what are you neglecting? -- in a very constructive way, steadfastly. So, our role is always to push back constructively -- and sometimes lead forward. Less so, but sometimes people will come up with, Oh, well, what about this? And it's taken very seriously. And so, that -- when I say a working board, I mean it's to provide ideas and to evaluate. And there have been a few times when -- I can't remember specifically -- something was proposed. And I 69:00would turn to Penina or to Lee Hutt and say, Oh, we tried that n years ago, and it didn't work, and, Gee, I wonder if it would be different. Maybe not. It was like -- so there have been a few things like that, and as I said, I can't re-- it doesn't come to mind right now. But I think for me, as an original board member -- there are all sorts of euphemisms you can come up with, but part of my role is to be a little bit of institutional history where I can because it -- there's a perspective, and I can see where we came from. I can't always see where we're going, but I can certainly see where we came from. And some of the things will suddenly resonate out of the blue, and I'll remember, Oh, we tried 70:00this, or we forgot that, and this didn't -- or this was a great, unexpected success. So, the stories that were recorded, that was a great project -- that's now about twenty-five years ago. And it was a great project at the time. But it was much more successful, I think, than expected. And so, you sort of say, What do I learn from that? Do I learn something? So, anyway.

CW:So, what was the day-to-day work of the Yiddish Book Center when it started?

RS:So, a lot of collecting and shlepping. And shlepping, collecting. (laughs) And looking for people to tide us over financially. I think that was it. I mean, the zamler [volunteer book collector] network was set up quite early on, and --

CW:Can you just explain what that is?

RS:Oh, yeah. So, one of the roles that was figured out for supporters of the Book Center who were located remotely and might or might not have money to give was to help collect the books. And so, the idea was that if somebody called up and said, "I have a bunch of books in my basement, and I'm moving," or "I'm throwing them out" or whatever, that rather than having Aaron and his minions jump into the truck and go get them -- which certainly continued for quite a while -- there was an alternative, which is that my husband, who was a zamler, 72:00could drive to Jersey and go meet the person and pick up the books. And usually we would then have them in our basement for a while until we were going up to Amherst, and then we would deliver them. So, the idea was to have a network, both for very pragmatic reasons -- to collect those books and to help with that -- but also I think the role was, as Aaron described in his first book, to connect with those people and give them the opportunity to do the yerushe [heritage] thing and know that they were handing off the books to a good place and that they would be well taken care of, and that there were other people who cared. And you never would leave quickly. I mean, it was always a thing that you did. So, the zamlers were sort of the yeomen of the organization who helped 73:00collect. And the -- kind of a little bit unsung heroes, although a little bit recognized. And so, I -- that was a way to do something for the organization, something substantive that didn't require special expertise and did not even require expertise in Yiddish, although it would help. But, you know, so it was just you could go and do it. And -- are we still doing that? I'm not sure if we're still doing that. Okay.

CW:I'm curious; did you think it would last?

RS:I didn't think about that. (laughs) Well, I think -- there was a time, maybe 74:00twenty years ago, when Aaron was very ill, and when he had a brain aneurysm, I believe. And I remember where I was sitting in my home when the chair of the board, Myra Fein, called up to tell us about this. That was a time when I wasn't sure it would last. And the organization was quite successful by then, but that really put a very fine point on the issue of, could this organization survive without Aaron? And I think that's still an important and not completely answered 75:00question. The other answer that I would give you to that, and maybe this is channeling Walt Winchell a little bit, is when you ask, Can it last? you're really asking, or you should be asking, Can the mission evolve? And it has. And it has evolved spectacularly. But I think that there was a juncture when in a general sense we knew that we needed to pivot and to think about what are we about besides collecting the books, and not just because we're done collecting, 'cause we're not done collecting, but what's the next step? And that is a much 76:00harder step. And I think that Walt was really a key person in being willing to ask impolite questions and really engage Aaron, and to some extent, others on the board -- Lee, for instance -- and say, Well, no, you haven't really answered that well enough. What are you really gonna do? What do you really mean? And sort of, Don't just wave your hands and be broad-brush; what are we really gonna do, and we can't do everything, so which are the key things to do? So, I will say that it worried me as we were having those growing pains, or -- I wouldn't say "worry me" -- it gave me pause to think about, How are we going to pull off 77:00this much more difficult step? And as I said, I think we've done it and more. I think we've been even more successful with the broader mission. And it's not that everything works as beautifully as we would like, but almost everything, (laughs) you know? And so, that's really very exciting. Especially coming after a little bit of a period when we were figuring that out. And we're still figuring that out -- I hope, actually. Yeah.

CW:Can you remember debates within the Book Center, at the board level, about 78:00the direction that stand out as important to you along the way?

RS:Well, not a whole lot of debates, actually. There have been debates -- maybe "debate" is too strong a word, but there have been discussions about, What are the obligations of a board member? Are there financial obligations? And that's kind of a hard thing, because traditional boards, people give a fair bit of money, and they're on the board. And they contribute, but there's kind of a requirement. And I think the way that our organization handled that -- and I 79:00don't know where the model came from -- is we want everyone to show their commitment with a donation to the yerushe campaign or whatever, but the amount of that donation is up to you. And that's a very constructive way to recognize that people have different means and that people can contribute in different ways. And so, that has been muted, but I think that's been a little bit of a debate. The other thing that has come up many, many times and is not really well-settled is, What is the -- what should be the geographical distribution of board members? You know, in other words, we need more people from the Midwest, 80:00or we need -- and so on. And so, all that's a hard issue because there aren't as many people from certain areas. But there are substantial Jewish populations that are not represented on the board. And you could argue that part of the difficulty is the location in Amherst. It's probably not helpful. So, that's kind of been a bit of a thing. But I think on the direction of the -- say, the whole education effort, I guess the only debate as a theme that I would point to 81:00is, How much can we do well? In other words, how do we pick and choose? And maybe Lief and Eugene have both led the discussions on this, and it's not that they've taken any particular view, I think. But it's -- I think Aaron would say, We always have enough ideas. We have more than enough ideas. And so, the debate, if there is one, is, How do we go forward with the right choices and what are the criteria? I don't know quite what the -- I mean, that's the harder question, right? So, as I understand it, the difficulty with the Tent program and having 82:00that succeed is that the initial funding came from someone who wanted broad impact, lots of people, without great concern about the content. That's my view of it. And that led to a falling-out. And I think that it illustrates that whatever you choose to do, you're taking a position on what -- how you want your impact to play out. And so, is the metric the number of people who attended? Well, part of it surely is. Is the metric what they do with that -- the outcomes 83:00of that program a year later, five years later -- I mean, is that the metric? Do you have something beautiful and intensive that people can look back and say, Well, that was transformative for me? And they may or may not be working in that area or living that, but, well, how do you judge those things? It's not so easy. And so, you're always making choices. You can't do everything. And you can't do everything well. And I think the Book Center tries very, very hard to have something that's developed be turned into something else and used in some other way and really double and triple use and so on. And I think they do a great job at that. But that's really hard, because if you try to spread yourself too thin, 84:00you're gonna fail at everything. And so, I think that has kind of been -- well, I'll give you an example. There was a period, probably twenty years ago, when it was frequently discussed at board meetings among the projects that we want to do was translation. And for a long time, there was nothing. We couldn't do it; we couldn't do it; we couldn't do it. And then, the next phase was this small and very fine series through Yale that was launched, and it took a very long time, and all of the authorities were arguing over the hundred most important and this and -- books and all this kind of -- this period; it wasn't all the same 85:00project, but this is how it jumbles up in my head. And it was done. And it was beautifully done, and it had impact. But the next round was, No, we're not gonna do it that way at all. We're gonna have the translators, and we're gonna have the group. And in a year or two, there may be another way. So, to me, that's an illustration of how you can't lay out a blueprint, that you have to try something that makes sense, and if it's not the right way, then you have to try something else. And I would say that Tent is another example. We haven't found (claps hands) the everything. We've found something, and we have knowledge, but 86:00we have to go another way. And so, it's the making of choices. I think that's -- and the choices that we made ten, twenty years ago are not the right choices anymore, and that's okay. That's just -- in fact, if it were the same choices it would be so stale it would be disgusting, you know? So. Anyway.

CW:I wanted to go back, if we could, to the spaces that the Book Center was in early on. 'Cause that's something not a lot of people remember. So, can you describe what you remember about the Florence location?

RS:I don't remember a lot about Florence; that's probably a good thing. I remember it was -- I think it was a -- like, a second floor. It was not on the ground floor. We had some space on this one floor. And I think it -- I don't 87:00know if it was a warehouse. It might have been. I remember (laughs) that it was very cold. It was an unheated space, I think, and it was very cold. And we met there a number of times. I remember knowing that the staff had to wear gloves while they did their work, 'cause it was -- I mean, it's a cold place, right? So, I do remember that. I don't remember all of them. The next one that I do remember is the old elementary school kind of in the center of Amherst. And we had that for a while, I think. And we were very lucky 'cause I think we didn't have to pay rent, and they were not using it. And that was kind of a squarish 88:00building, I think, maybe a couple of floors. And it did serve our purposes for a while. I think during that time we already had books in the warehouse, in --

CW:Holyoke?

RS:-- Holyoke, I think. Or -- so that was ongoing for a very long time. And the other one that I remember before the current building is the mansion, the yellow mansion. And that was in, I guess, South Hadley. It was a building owned by Mount Holyoke College. At that time it was not in use, and so they let us use it. And I think we just had to pay utilities. And what I remember about that is you'd kind of knock around and get lost in there. So, suddenly all of the sort 89:00of mid-level and senior staff, everybody had their own office, and it was, like, Whoo, look at this, you know? And it had -- some of them had a view of the mountains and stuff like this. So, that was a big expansion. So, maybe that was after the school; I don't remember exactly. And there was this -- a kind of irony of being -- living in a mansion on the Mount Holyoke College campus because they were not known as being such a Jewishly -- welcoming group, you know. Certainly not in the days when I was going to college. So, that I remember. And I do remember some of the -- a little bit about the presentations 90:00of the building. So, the architect came and just really blew us away with the design and how he had thought about it and the whole resonance with the old synagogues and --

CW:Allen Moore, you --

RS:Yeah, Allen Moore. And I guess it was very striking that he did not have the Jewish background, but he did have the Jewish background. And he just had taken that all in and come up with something that made so much sense and that we knew would be really terrific. And so, that was really very special. And I do remember the celebration. It was in a big white tent. And it was a huge, 91:00colossal thing to do, and we had musicians. And Aaron's kids were both really tiny little girls dressed the same, and they sat in the front, and it was a whole big deal. So, it was very special to be moving to our own place. And similarly, although in a different way, the expansion of the building was such a celebration that, Oh, we need this! We need more because we need this function, we need that function, we need an event space -- a big event space as well as a medium event space -- and so on. So, each phase has been interesting in its own 92:00way. And I also think that until relatively recently, the draw for visitors in the building was to look down the stacks and see all of that out there. But now there's more participatory stuff that I really like for kids. And that really was absent. I mean, I would say that one challenge that I think is still to be met, and I can't tell you how, is the demographics of the organization. So, one of the things that my husband and I did for quite a while was to go to KlezKamp. 93:00And I don't quite know how we ended up going to KlezKlamp. So, what went on there was -- it's now different format now and so on -- but was really, really vibrant. And it was a young people's thing as well as -- it really crossed generations. So, you'd have Lorin Sklamberg, and his mother was there and this and that thing. You'd have all these people, and it was -- the classes were very, very high level and challenging and crazy and all this kind of stuff. And there was music, but there was other stuff. And it was very intense, and then you could have your kids there, and they would be doing plays with Jenny 94:00Romaine, and it was like, Whoa! And so, that is a different format and different -- and it played to a different demographic than the Book Center ever has. And there have been discussions for instance in the board about how to attract board members with relatively young children. So, Debra Caplan is an example who has advocated for that group of people. And there's kind of been a gap, I would say. And I don't say that obnoxiously, but you know, it's -- again, we have the group that we attract. But there are people that we need to be thinking about, and 95:00maybe we're not quite figuring out how to -- what those people want and need. And sometimes I think that it pays to get the input from that group and then design. Because if you don't have necessarily on staff the people who are living that life -- you may or you may not -- but you need a bigger group to tell you, Well, what are we missing? What do we need? And I think we could probably do more. And do it beautifully. So.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

CW:So, when we were talking about the buildings, do you remember how it came -- the story of getting the spot on Hampshire campus and how it came that it was there?

RS:Yes. I remember some of that. So, the president of Hampshire College, Greg something, wanted to have a -- like, a cultural village, I believe it was called. And he had a -- quite a grand village to have a hotel and then several organizations on the campus. And of course, because Aaron had been an alum, and he had become friendly with Greg, I think that the plan from the beginning was that the Book Center would be the first tenant or the first group. And (pause) 97:00I'm a little bit vague on all the details here. I remember that there was a bit of a controversy about the purchase of the land. And I was involved; that's why I'm a little bit sorry that I don't remember. It was I and one other person, and I don't remember exactly. But we had the task of negotiating with the college about how much to pay and where the borders were gonna be and this and that and the other. Now of course, the staff had done most of the real work on this. And I remember it was kind of a ticklish negotiation. And should we be -- play hardball and pay less, or should we just pay what they wanted, and what was a 98:00fair price, and nobody knew and this and that and the other. So, we did it. And there was issues of easements and all this kind of stuff that I don't know anything about. And I remember there -- I don't remember exactly why -- I remember there was some flak, that somebody felt we had not driven a hard enough bargain or something like that. But I do remember that the idea of being located on a college campus and really integrated with them was very, very attractive. We had not -- even in the Mount Holyoke version, it was kinda everything was spread out. It wasn't really part of the college, although it was very generous of them to offer it to us. So, it was viewed as, We'll be the lead organization. 99:00Now, other than us and the Eric Carle Museum, I don't think there are any, and I don't think the hotel ever got built, and that president is long gone. But it was a very interesting idea. And it fit us. And obviously, it was a good move to have our own place, which we had never had. And of course, we were in hoc for quite a while because of it. But it was just -- well, it was what we agreed to do. And there were some really important contributions by board members to liquidate the debt. And that was a huge, huge thing, to be able to not be in debt and then to actually start building the endowment, which is ongoing. I mean, if I think back, we never would've dreamed of any of those things 100:00happening. It just was -- even with people of means on the board by then, it was like, Well, how do we get this to happen? And Lief Rosenblatt was really instrumental in sort of changing the dynamic, I think, and professionalizing the board. He was the one who I think established committees that would report out and really regularized the agenda and just changed all of that. That was a big, big thing. And he did it for, like, a decade, I think. That's a big thing in and of itself.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

CW:I'm curious; there was a sort of five-year celebration.

RS:Yes. Yes.

CW:So, what do you remember of that?

RS:Arlo Guthrie was (laughs) there. We did folk dancing with Arlo Guthrie. I 101:00think I have a poster from it. I don't remember a lot about it, but I think it was kind of like, Oh, we made it through five years. And it was -- and I don't remember where it was, exactly. I don't remember. But it was just, We're here (claps hands) to stay, kind of statement. And I think it was relatively simple, but it was just a celebration. Yeah. And I do remember, because of Marjorie Guthrie's involvement with the center, that Arlo Guthrie and his family were there, and I thought that was pretty cool. Yeah. So, yeah.

CW:What about memorable book collections or book rescues --

RS:Right.

CW:-- that stand out for you?

RS:Well, the one that I think I -- not that I was there, but that I recall, is 102:00the one with the linotype where they had to extract it from the building and then put it together again, which was not easy. And I think that was -- well, that was also meaningful to me because I had been a high school newspaper editor, so I kind of knew a little about what was involved with the type and that -- and of course, this was type in Yiddish. Well, it was a little bit bittersweet because these things are not in use anymore, and maybe that's okay, but it was preservation. And I remember in the summer that's -- had been -- 103:00someone would go explain it every time when you would come, and that was really very nice. So, that to me, even more than the books as a rescue effort, was really remarkable. And it was, like, a passing of the guard to -- or changing of the guard. So --

CW:And where did that -- where did it come from?

RS:It came from -- I think from the "Forward" building here in New York. And they, of course, were using software by that time. I think they were moving, moving their headquarters. I can't remember exactly. I remember that it was very difficult to -- I don't remember where they had to cut a hole in the floor, the ceiling, or something or other. It was not easy to extract, and it was heavy. 104:00And then, they had to take it apart and then find the one person on this earth who could put it together again and get it working. So, you know. And it was, like, the last one, and I remember that Aaron had written it in one of his -- one of his fundraising letters, these famous, remarkable letters that I don't know where he finds it in him to keep coming up with new and really compelling things. But -- so that was a subject of one of them. So, that was pretty memorable. I mean, the other rescues, I think, that are very meaningful are the ones in countries far and wide. So, there was the big foray to the former Soviet 105:00Union, which had its own very special (laughs) problems. And the one to -- Uruguay? No, Argentina, I think, where there had been a -- a shul had been burned and this and that. So, there was very extreme situations. And so, those are especially notable, I think.

CW:I want to ask about Aaron's writing and fundraising ability, for which he's very well known --

RS:Right.

CW:-- far and wide. When did that start? I mean, was that right from day one, that ability?

RS:I think so. I think it's just -- it's intuitive. I mean, he's learned a lot of -- I'm sure. But I think it -- he just has the sixth sense to know what to 106:00say, what will be -- what will resonate with particular people. And I don't think -- I mean, I'm sure if you asked him he would say, "Well, I tried this, and this was a bust," and every once in a while at board meetings he would say something like that. But generally speaking, he -- I mean, you see it in the letters, and you see it in person when he gives a talk; he just knows what will be right for his audience. And at some level, you can't learn that. You have to just do it and see. And he just has that talent. And I think it's 'specially 107:00remarkable 'cause the audience is not always the same, so you have to say something different, or you have to modulate or whatever. I mean, if you think about the Sidney Berg story, how he just called him up one day and said, "I want to bankroll this organization," that was at a time -- that was certainly in the first five years. And there would have been no basis, no infrastructure, for fundraising then. It was shnoring [begging], just plain and simple, right? So, he had to figure out on the spot, I get this cold call, what do I say to this -- I mean, the guy already wanted to help out, but he didn't know him. The guy was 108:00in real estate; that's not exactly Aaron's background. You know. So, he just figures it out. I don't know what to say. And for a very a long time, there have been ups and downs with finding the right staff member to handle the fundraising. And I think we are so, so lucky to have Zvi because he is terrific. But we've had lots of difficulty doing that. And I mention that because it underscores Aaron's talents in that area, because he does not have the training. And we've had -- we once had, for a short time, a guy who came and brought me a little book on fundraising. He was a professional know-nothing. And he came to 109:00my office in Staten Island. It was just a disaster. And so, it just illustrates that this is not easy to do. So, I guess I have to think that Aaron's innate talent for this comes from knowing at the deepest level what is the purpose of the organization and who is the audience he's trying to reach. And even if he's in the middle of figuring something out for himself, he just projects that, I get it, and this is what I'm trying to do, and for sure you're gonna want to be part of it. I don't know. And so, I would argue that some of the professional 110:00fundraisers, even who have background in Jewish organizations, it's not our Jewish organization. And they're not all the same. And we've had some people who were spectacularly unsuccessful 'cause they just didn't get it. And -- I don't know if you were at the Book Center when Lou Cove was in charge. He was untutored, untaught, and he just got it. And he did a lot of very, very fine things. And the Book Center kinda took a chance on him, and they just kinda said, Well, I think this might work. And it really did. And so, it's -- I don't mean to demean the training that people get, and I could not do this stuff, and 111:00right now I'm chair of my department, so I have to do a little bit of fundraising, and I don't know what I'm doing. But I think that -- knowing where you're trying to go goes a very long way, and projecting the vision goes a very long way in getting people to come on board. And I would have to think that many of the people that Aaron approaches for money -- we did do a thing in the board once, a play-acting thing? I'll tell you about that in a minute. But he's not just saying, "Give me money"; he's saying, "Join me." Now, we did do something, now that I remember, in the board. I think Eugene may have been already chair by then -- I'm not sure. Maybe it was still Lief. Somewhere at that juncture. There 112:00have been discussions about what -- if and how the board should be involved in fundraising, and this has never really been really gelled, but certain board members have had salons and this and that and the other. And we did have an exercise once, I don't know who came up with this, where we were paired up and -- so there were -- two of us had to be the askers, and then one was the target, for lack of a better word. And we had to come up with how we were gonna approach that person. And everybody was like, I don't want to do this; I don't know to do this. But we did it. And it was hilarious. (laughs) 'Cause I was paired with Howard Markel, and, you know, we're two academics, and we're like, (makes confused noise), but we did it. And I don't -- we never did anything with it, 113:00but it was kind of fun. So. But it was kind of an -- a little bit of an object lesson, like, well, this is not easy. (laughs) So.

CW:I want to ask about the -- about Aaron's first book, "Outwitting History." How --

RS:Would you like one of my many copies? (laughs)

CW:I have a couple copies, so --

RS:Yeah.

CW:How did that book -- when did that idea come up, and as -- from the board perspective, what was that --

RS:Right.

CW:-- process?

RS:I guess that, I don't know, at some board meeting Aaron announced that he was writing a book about the early days of the Book Center. And everybody said, Oh, that's great. And I don't think we realized how much hard work it would be and 114:00to be -- how difficult it would be to -- for him to write the book while continuing to do everything else. And so, obviously it took a while, and this second book also. But I think that everyone realized, I would say immediately, how important that endeavor would be to the organization and how we should be enablers of that process by allowing him to take time off when he wanted, and sort of whatever he said was fine because we knew it would be a good thing. And I think part of the challenge, in my opinion, of making that book was to make -- 115:00to ensure that it would transcend the nostalgia thing. And that's always been true for the whole organization, right? You want to be able to look back but also look forward. And I think he did that, because the book has been so well received, but also it has started conversations. And I think he remarked that when he would come back to the board members' meetings and say, "Well, I was out promoting the book, and people were asking me all sorts of things that I didn't necessarily think were on the agenda. And that is great, and now I'm, like, on this listening tour, and I'm --" So, I think it really opened a lot of doors. 116:00And maybe that was anticipated; maybe it wasn't. But I -- that was -- he would come and tell us about these audiences and what they were thinking, what they were telling him. So yeah, good.

CW:From your perspective, what is attractive about the Yiddish Book Center?

RS:Hm. I think what is attractive is that -- is the way in which the mission has evolved. To start with a dire situation with the books needing to be saved and to evolve into a much broader and deeper mission of education and renewal and to 117:00celebrate Yiddishkayt -- that's a pretty inspiring kind of thing. And I think for me, having started at the beginning when we were nothing -- you know, we were just a couple of ideas all over the place -- to see the organization mature without getting stale, in my opinion, and to see the staff -- I mean, when we had that retreat, that was wowie zowie because everyone was so excited by seeing 118:00people of your generation who were not just contributing but who each had their own portfolio and their own ideas and were making these vibrant kinds of contributions. So, that is -- it's not just the content or the program. I mean, I'm on the program committee and so on. It's seeing how it plays out with a new group of people and how it keeps changing. You have a new person come on and then all the -- everything rearranges and this and that -- and the ability to do that is very inspiring. And there'll always be something new. I mean, this new grant that came through about the teachers. That's a fantastic project. And I am 119:00not at all surprised that that was a winner because the leverage, potentially, from that project is just huge.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

RS:As a parent whose child went through a kinda uninspiring Sunday school thing in a Reform shul that was not -- well, the music was very good, but most of the rest was pretty uninspiring. To see the potential to have education that will inspire kids the way I was inspired is huge. So, seeing that come to fruition and seeing the recognition and the museum award and your award with the NEH, you know, are very big things. To me, it's an indication of maturity, but we're 120:00still having fun, and we're still -- I hate the word "maturity," but it's -- I don't know what's the right word. To be coming to a different stage but not losing your -- the kind of soul of, Oh, we're changing, we're shaking things up, that kind of thing. So, that to me is very inspiring.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

CW:I want to ask about the -- from my understanding, one of the earliest programs was the internship program --

RS:Yes.

CW: -- in the summer.

RS:Yes.

CW:And so, if you can think back on how that was early on --

RS:Right. So, I think in the early days it was well understood that the major 121:00activity was shlepping, and the kids did it with -- all in good humor. And there was from the beginning some lessons in literature -- I mean, Yiddish literature and Yiddish language. So, I believe there were two sessions. I'm sure there were only beginners. It was not -- now that we have the dual thing. And the students were paid, which I believe is not the case now. But they were cohesive. It was a small group at first. I don't know if it was even as -- I don't know, eight? Four? It was small. But it was a springboard for many people. And so, there was 122:00a reunion of the interns in 1991. Somebody said, "Oh, we're having our first ever reunion." I said, "Oh, nonsense." Because I was there. They had it in Nova Scotia. At Aaron and -- in the field, I don't know, next to Aaron and Gail's house. And we had porta-potties. We were sitting out in the field inventing stuff we wanted to do. And he had asked a couple of board members to be there in addition to the interns. So, it was a very tight group, I think. But there was not a great deal of Yiddish content, I would say. And those were the days also 123:00when there were a smaller proportion of staff who could speak and read Yiddish. And we used to get kind of beaten up by other organizations because of that. And -- well, it just wasn't kind of possible at that time. And the group who went through that, of course many of them have become Yiddish scholars and academics and -- well, it takes time to become Jeremy Dauber or whatever. But it was a very -- it was a great program in it -- from its outset. And I believe that -- I don't think it was sponsored by the Steiners at the very beginning. They picked 124:00it up, of course, and that was great. But there was a picture that was in the alumni intern thing. And so, it was sent out, and I responded 'cause I was there. It was in the Nova Scotia thing, and I -- and I -- I'm crying a little 'cause I get very emotional about it. And I said, "The Steiner Program." Then I said, "Well, you know, this is even before that, I think." And so, there were a couple of people who ran it, and the students loved it, even though there wasn't -- they were just beginning with their Yiddish. And I think a lot of these things start off very rough and tumble and just kind of, we're making it up, and then you figure out what to do. And that's okay. I mean, I think it is okay. I don't know when it started, actually. Mid-'80s, maybe? I don't know exactly. A 125:00while ago. A while ago. Yeah.

CW:So, you mentioned earlier the MacArthur. I wonder if you can -- if you remember what that -- when that happened and --

RS:Well, I guess it was probably -- mid-'90s? Early ninety-- I'm not sure exactly.

CW:That we can -- that's a knowable fact. (laughs)

RS:That's a -- yes. That you can find out. Well, it was pretty early on in that program. So, that makes it very special to be one of the first. And it was a terrific recognition, obviously. And I think -- so in addition to the financial 126:00significance (laughs) that I mentioned, to make it easier for Aaron to actually get paid and to help the organization, I think it gave him a measure of flexibility. And maybe it was at the time when he decided to write the book. I'm actually not sure. But the point is that when you get that recognition, it's just a validation. And it's not just Aaron -- although obviously it is Aaron and it should be Aaron -- but it's the whole mission and the whole organization. It sort of says, Somebody out there is noticing that I and we did something special and something wildly creative, given what this award is. So, I think -- in my 127:00field, as soon as someone gets an award, there'll be ten people taking potshots at them and saying, Ah, well, he's not really good enough. And I -- you know, other than some kind of schadenfreude blah, blah, blah, I think that people would say, Look, this person shook up that Yiddish world, and this is deserved, and this is different. And I think even the early skeptics would have said, This is different. And they all have to recognize now that this is different, and it's successful. And it has changed a paradigm. And I think Aaron had the -- 128:00always -- I don't know, the courage of his convictions, to say, Well, you may be doing this, and I respect that, but I'm doing that. And let's see what happens, (laughs) kind of thing. So, I think the MacArthur was a kind of recognition of a new road to go down that really was just noteworthy, pay attention, blah, blah, blah. So.

CW:When you look back over the thirty-odd years, are there other moments like that that stick out?

RS:Well, I think some of the -- I guess I only went to two of them, the summer 129:00concert thing. I think --

CW:The Paper Bridge or the Yidstock?

RS:Well, I did both. I think going to the first Yidstock was quite special because it was in our home, and it was our way of celebrating, and it was big and bold and really good that way. I used to really like the Paper Bridge also, because it was more small-bore but very high quality stuff. So, they each have their charms, I think. When we were doing the new building, this thing I 130:00described in the white tent, that was extremely memorable, because there were officials, there were kinda dignitaries, and it was a -- in a way -- I don't know, a turning point. And a new phase, because we were gonna have our own home. And that -- you know, we were celebrating having our own home. And that had already been after -- whatever, ten, fifteen years of itinerant survival. And with lots of goodwill from many people. But to be undertaking something in our own space that we designed -- I mean, not me personally, but we -- the royal we 131:00-- was really very memorable. And it was a tremendous craziness getting it ready and so on. It was an undertaking unlike what had ever been done by the organization. But it was, I guess, an expression of optimism. So, when you ask the question, Will this last?, well, that's like you raise your arm, you're saying, Yes! Mir zaynen do [We are here], kind of thing. And so, I think that was really memorable -- even though I don't remember which year! (laughs)

CW:That's okay. That's knowable too.

RS:Yes. Yes.

CW:And I guess on a more personal note, what's been the meaning of being 132:00involved since the beginning and staying involved --

RS:Right.

CW:-- for you?

RS:Well, I think -- so one of the meanings for me is to stay connected with my Yiddishkayt in a set of circumstances where most of my life -- my professional life and even my personal life -- are kind of orthogonal to that. And so, it's a happy accident that someone in my chemistry department knew that I spoke some Yiddish, and it's a happy accident that my parents were not so keen on religion and sent me to the Arbeter Ring shul [secular Yiddish school]. So, being involved has given me a hemshekh, a continuing involvement on terms that I am 133:00very comfortable with. And most of the board members -- there are a number of longstanding board members, but there aren't too many with backgrounds in science, and so it's special for me to have the privilege of being involved, even though I'm in this whole other kind of field. So, I think the other thing that's very important to me is to see the young people like yourself who came through the program and are now leading the organization. I mean, there're quite 134:00a few of you now. And that is -- that gives me great optimism, as well as happiness, but just optimism for the future. I mean, I love reading the stuff online where I've -- what's it called -- the vault? Looking in the vault? And I never have time, but I have to read at least one of them in depth, or listen to part of the podcast or whatever. And it's special that it comes from -- other than Aaron -- that it comes from all of you others. And it seems to me that you -- there's also a kind of a -- you're celebrating each other and saying, Look what he found! Look what she found, kind of thing. And that is -- that suggests to me that you're synergizing and working well together, which is important and 135:00not always easy to do. Back in the day, we had an education director, whose name I will not share, but who was very good and very expert -- actually, we had a couple of them -- who it was like, My way or the highway. And I think we're in a different place now, which is terrific. So -- very exciting.

CW:Great. Well, I thank you.

[END OF INTERVIEW]