DEENA BLOCH SHAFFERT ORAL HISTORY

CHRISTA WHITNEY:This is Christa Whitney and today is September 29th, 2017. I am here in Huntington, New York, with Deena Bloch Shaffert. We're going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Do I have your permission to record?

DEENA BLOCH SHAFFERT:Yes.

CW:Thank you. So, let's jump right in. We're going to be talking about a certain relative of yours today. Can you just start out by saying who the person is and how you're related to them?

DBS:Solomon Simon, otherwise known as Shleyme. And I'm his granddaughter, Deena. I think I was the first grandchild, I'd say.

CW:And what do you know about -- and whatever you know is fine -- about what you 1:00know about his background, your zeyde [grandfather]'s background?

DBS:My recollection is he came here on his own from Russia at eighteen years old. And it's kind of sweet 'cause my grandmother, Lena, used to call him a greenhorn. He was the greenhorn because she had arrived when she was nine years old. So, she was very proud of that, and that she was more Americanized than he was. So, he must have come to Ellis Island, right, and to New York. And he had left his family in the shtetl [small town in Eastern Europe with a Jewish community]. And come here, I know he had a lot of jobs. He worked as a painter and he ultimately put himself through school. I'm not sure how much college -- he went to dental school, and he stayed connected, 'cause I think he had other 2:00siblings who also went to Israel. He was a very connected, caring person, a very warm and passionate human being about what he believed in. And he really cared about the world and people. And I don't know if he was always like that from when he was young. But, as I knew him, he was that way.

CW:And what is he famous for?

DBS:Well, he was a writer -- a Yiddish writer and a scholar, which -- it ranged, so he did the more serious work and he worked on "The Rabbi's Bible" with a colleague. And then, he also was known for folk stories, like " Wise Men of Chelm." And he lectured on the Old Testament. And, again, to me, this is interesting, because he would -- my grandmother was a driver. He never drove. 3:00And she would go with him. So, she was really the woman behind the man. She literally would drive him to his lectures and they were together a lot, as a -- they were a team, except for when she would take off sometimes in the winter with her friends and drive to Florida. I guess he would stay up in New York and be working. But other than that, they were always together. And she was very proud of him, and to be his wife. Was very traditional in that way.

CW:And can you tell me a little bit about your grandmother, what you know about where she came from?

DBS:Well, she was also from Russia. And there's actually a picture of her as a child with her four sisters, her mother, and her grandmother, where her father -- and I think this was not an unusual story -- had come ahead of them to the 4:00United States and it had been five years. So, her mother went to the photographer, over in Europe, and had this picture taken, like, "Don't forget about us." And apparently, he sent for them afterwards. And I think he was a furrier. He made coats. But she stayed in school till she was fourteen. But she was very smart. But then, she had to leave school to work, so -- but she also kept studying. And another interesting thing about her, when -- in Europe, her father, apparently, believed in educating -- even though he only had daughters and they were all educated over there -- I think they had tutors and -- so, that was something that was important to her and also why she enjoyed that life with my grandfather. In their house in Brooklyn, they had a library in the basement. I remember being a little girl there and just fascinated by this room that was 5:00lined with books. The walls had books everywhere. It was just so remarkable to me. So, there was such a love of learning and education and -- however you could get it, because they had done -- you know, again, she didn't have the formal education and he had worked as a painter. So, while they appreciated formal education, to me, they were respectful, as well, of everybody and whatever anybody's job was as long as you were a good person, to be a good human being. So, it wasn't just about God. It was also being a good person while you're here. And I know my mother, I don't know if she picked this up from them, because she would say, "We don't know what is afterwards, so you have to do the best you can while you're here on this planet." So, yeah, he was, again, with being very proud of being an American, he was into -- I would say he always had an opinion. 6:00My grandmother, not as much. She was more in the kitchen with the recipes, which she didn't really share very much. It was like a pinch of this, a pinch of that. But he was in the world, with ideas, and they had discussions, though. There was always something going on. It was very lively at their house. Some people -- I guess I'm reverting to talking about him a little bit, but he was to me such a character. I adored him. Just full of life and always had something to say about his ideas, his beliefs. One time, well, a couple times, I remember this argument and this goes back to who was the newcomer and who was a true American that they had. And I don't remember how old I was, but it just cracked me up, because they were -- whether you could say a refrigerator and a Frigidaire, if that was interchangeable or whether it was -- like Kleenex and tissue. And somehow, this 7:00argument happened in their kitchen. And they were so irritated with one another, but --

CW:So, what was the argument?

DBS:Whether or not you could use these words interchangeably, whether you could say -- like you would call a refrigerator a Frigidaire. So, one of them was saying, "No, you can't. That's a brand name." And the other was saying, "No, you can actually still say it, just like tissue and Kleenex." So, I remember thinking, What are they getting so excited about? I thought it was comical, 'cause they were very annoyed. One of them stormed out of the kitchen -- "Oh!" Like that. I guess sort of showing mastery of the language. But he was very proud. I think he knew -- so, he knew Yiddish, was probably first. English, Hebrew, Aramaic. But she was no wilting flower. If she had an opinion, she would state that, too. (laughs) And so, she was always reading, as well. I mean, she 8:00would read, read, read, read, all the time, too. Funny.

CW:So, I want to hear more about this house in Brooklyn, what you remember of it. Can you sort of put yourself back there and describe as much as you can about the house?

DBS:Yeah, I don't have the street written. Yes, I guess it was Flatbush. And I have it written down but I don't know it right in my head. I remember walking in and there was a foyer, like a little vestibule, and you'd come in and then there's the living room and the big old TV, black and white TV. Then, to the side, there was an area with a bay window. He had his desk there. And he would always be working there. Yeah, he always watched the news. So, there's always that six o'clock news on. I just loved going there again. I loved the street, the sidewalks, the trees. It was a very friendly neighborhood. Then, you'd go upstairs -- well, there was a basement, with the library. They had a little yard. Go upstairs. And there were just like the three bedrooms. And then there 9:00was the kitchen. There was a bathroom that my grandmother -- it annoyed her that there was a toilet and a bathroom in the kitchen. And she kept saying they should have changed that, that didn't seem right. And I think there were like black and white tiles, I don't -- but you could eat in there, 'cause I remember coming down -- when I would stay over, I loved it, and she'd make oatmeal and it was so good. So, she always had something cooking and delicious to eat. And then, the neighborhood kids -- he was such a big personality. Even though he was a dentist, this is another thing I used to get a chuckle out of, he carried candy around. So, they would see him, the neighborhood children, they would come run-- "Dr. Simon, Dr. Simon!" And he'd give them chewing gum. Not sugarless! Regular. He was always handing this out to them. And again, I was thinking, That's interesting. You were a dentist. Why are you giving all these kids candy? That kind of thing. But he, again, every -- they were so lively. They had such a 10:00big circle of friends and people who enjoyed them. I remember they had a friend who had a candy store, I think, or whatever kind of store, we'd go there. And they had another friend who had a clothing store, I think, or a cousin, maybe. And I'd go there and get clothes before school. And I felt so connected to them. Even though it was Brooklyn, 'cause I was just thinking about this, that -- which is sort of a distance from Long Island. But it just felt like they were there. They were just there. And, like I said, I loved to go there and walk around and go shopping with my grandmother, 'cause it was more -- I guess it was a little more Jewish. We had been in Queens. I was in Flushing, where we started, then we moved to Huntington. But it felt like a more tightly-knit community there, people -- because it was the city and people who knew them and that kind of thing. They apparently -- it seemed like a lot of people liked 11:00them. I mean, and another thing that was amusing, too -- again, like I said, he was such an animated person. So, he would get phone calls from his publisher, I remember this, too, and be on the telephone. He'd get so aggravated about -- he'd be arguing with him about that or even maybe some other people. So, there'd be these bursts of energy and these conversations and comments of whatever, then it would just settle down. It never felt like anger, really. Just more passion. He would talk to anybody, just on the street. He was such an outgoing person. I used to get embarrassed by it sometimes. I remember, like, Oh, gosh, here he goes again. And I remember going to Lincoln Center at one point to see "Showboat." And this young woman was in front of us with her husband, I guess - beautiful long hair. He starts -- he's like strok-- I'm, like, "Zeyde! What are you do--" "I'm an old man. I can do it." He turns around, I was, like, Oh, jeez. 12:00He's always interacting and connecting. And he turns around, he goes, "Oh, you're so beautiful, you have such beautiful" -- and they loved it! They thought, Oh, isn't that sweet? This warm, outgoing older man kind of thing. So, it was never a dull moment around them in any way, definitely. And felt a lot of warmth and love. He adored my grandmother and this is the other thing, things he would verbalize, how he used to write her love letters. He'd sort of say, "She's kind of a cold fish sometimes," which -- to which I was, like, Hmm. I didn't feel that from her, but I guess how -- she had been an anarchist and he wanted to get married and she didn't believe in marriage. So, he had to really court her, apparently, to get her to want to settle down. She used to get migraines and that was hard for her. So, that could have been -- she would sort of hide out on the radiator, I guess. They had passed by the time I was around. I think, 13:00in her younger years, she would have to retreat from those migraines kind of thing. But they were great together, to me. [BREAK IN RECORDING] So, just thinking about him, I later heard the expression "like a grumpy old grandpa." He was the only grandfather I ever knew and that was so shocking to me when I first heard that, because even though he would get irritated by things, to me he was such a loving person, it just took so long to fathom that concept and that expression that a grandfather, a zeyde wouldn't be loving and warm that way. Some grumpy old man. He was so not that. And even though he talked about his age a lot and he felt the pressure of time for what he wanted to accomplish with his writing and also, I believe, there's knowledge and wisdom he wanted to impart to young people and younger people -- like, he would be concerned about hippies, 14:00say. He used to write me letters and say, "The hippies, are they lost, these young people?" So, he would just stop people if he was in Florida and he thought somebody -- I guess a young person who looked a little lost or bewildered, and he would strike up a conversation. He was always trying to make contact and reach people to -- and younger people, just to, I think, really -- not maybe consciously, but to communicate that it matters and "I care" and people care and that whole kind of thing. Like don't drop out in that way. And he'd say, "There's no time to rest. You rest and you have peace when you're dead." (laughs) Something like, "When you're alive, you keep going." And whatever it is, you don't just leave something alone if it's challenging or difficult. He was very persistent, it seemed to me. Oh, another thing, back to their house. I 15:00don't know if my aunt had said this or somebody. I think my grandmother, in decorating, had emulated a neighbor who had been here, which -- then I learned later a lot of immigrants do this, as well. She didn't know how to decorate the house. They were very fortunate. He made a good living as a dentist and even through World War II, they were -- well, earlier, in the Depression and later, they were okay. So, she apparently emulated a neighbor with all the furnishings that she would notice and --

CW:So, what were the furnishings like?

DBS:Well, they were nice. There's a chair back there. Oriental rugs and lamps. Traditional kinds of things. She wasn't always redecorating or anything. She got it right in her mind the first time. The dining room table, the chairs there. And that, to me, added to that warmth of the home kind of thing. She was very 16:00into the home, yeah.

CW:Can you describe the basement a little more? Where were the books?

DBS:Well, as I recall, there were just walls, shelves, and every shelf was filled with all kinds of books. And they were in diff --- they were Yiddish, Hebrew, English. And sometimes, I would go there, I'd find something I would want to read. So, it was from the floor --- it was high. There were just loads of these books. And it's interesting, 'cause when -- I had what I always had considered a bat mitzvah. And he worked with me. So, I'd gone to the Sholem Aleichem folkshul [secular Yiddish school], which was a non-traditional -- again, I didn't know at the time that that's not really a bat mitzvah, because I wrote a paper about the Ten Commandments and then I did a reading from one of his books, in Yiddish. So that was very special to me, working with him, actually in this room. We would sit together and he would help me prepare. And, 17:00again, that was very important to him. And that felt special, 'cause as a girl, you didn't really do something like that. And then, we had a big party. So, I didn't read from the Torah or anything like that. Through his life, he had different versions of religiosity where he was more secular, he'd sort of go in and out. He was always into the culture, Yiddish culture and preserving that. And, again, even though some people didn't like, say, the Yiddish language, 'cause they thought it represented isolation that Jews kept in the shtetl, he wanted to maintain that and perpetuate that. He had such a love for Yiddish and Yiddish culture.

CW:So, when he was tutoring you for the bat mitzvah or coming of age --

DBS:Yeah.

CW:-- through the Sholem Aleichem shul, what would that have been like? Can you 18:00paint the picture?

DBS:So, it's going over, having this reading, which I was trying to find but I wasn't able yet to locate it, from his book. So, we'd go over the paper that I was working on and we would discuss it and then the reading that I was actually going to do so I could be fluent when I stood up there, speaking in Yiddish. And, again, about the Ten Commandments. And I recall him saying to me, "There are a lot of commandments, but these are the most important. And as long as you get these right, you don't have to worry so much about everything else. Get these straight." So, I was like, Hmm, okay, I thought that was pretty cool, at twelve years old. That makes sense. That made sense to me, that concept. So, again, I sometimes would say, "You're lecturing too much." And then, I think it was a little hurtful to him, 'cause there's always a lesson. And I think he had 19:00written me a letter once when they went to Florida, that I always said he was preaching, maybe because I was fourteen-ish around that time, fourteen, fifteen, up to sixteen, I think, when he died. And so, I loved him, but maybe, again, sort of pushing away from that adult and always trying to teach me a lesson kind of thing. Now, obviously, I cherish it and think, Oh, that was so wonderful, and just the way that he took the time to write to me and he was so thoughtful, that kind of thing. And some people said he was so maybe, I don't know, into himself. But I don't really think so. To me, he wasn't. He was on a mission, I felt, and I didn't see him that way. I didn't see him as an egotistical person, particularly. Strong, with strong views. But, again, caring. But always busy. 20:00So, if he would visit here, at my mother's home, he would come with his typewriter. He'd socialize for a while and then he'd go out on the patio, which is now a deck, with that typewriter. So, he'd be there and he'd be with everybody but he'd be working still, just like in Brooklyn, where he had his desk. So, he'd be behind that desk, which faced the living room, and then there was the TV, watching the news, with that window behind him. So, he was engaged in his work but still, you felt a presence. He didn't remove himself or isolate himself in that way.

CW:Do you remember what his desk looked like?

DBS:I think -- I'm not sure if this is correct. I think it was flat, just a rectangle. So, it was rather large, really. I'm not sure if it had dark green leather on top or not. I don't remember drawers or anything like that. Just 21:00there was papers. He always had at least one project or something that he was working on. So, he was just -- and apparently, when he worked full-time, when my mother was growing up and he had his practice -- and he was also apparently quite generous. If people didn't have money, he would give dental work to people. He was a decent dentist and this other Yiddish scholar part was a second career. Then, he'd come home, be with the family at dinner and then he would spend some time writing. So, he was doing both, doing all these kinds of writing and -- but having his practice, as well.

CW:Did you ever see the dental office?

DBS:No, never. Yeah, I didn't.

CW:So, I wanted to talk about him and see if you could describe what you 22:00remember him looking like.

DBS:Yeah. Well, I think he wasn't so tall. So, maybe five-four, with a mustache, a dark mustache and dark hair, which was greying. And then, glasses. A little hunched over. And he was missing a finger, I think, because he didn't pay any attention to reports, when it was coming out, when he was practicing dentistry, to not stay in the room when they were giving x-rays. So, he would keep his finger, I think, on somebody's -- the film. So, he ended up getting cancer in a finger. So, he lost at least one finger, I'd say, on one hand and maybe part of another on the other. He also smoked cigars and maybe a pipe, but I remember -- and it's funny, 'cause I actually -- to this day, I like the smell of a cigar because I had that -- it's always a positive association. But I don't recall it 23:00being indoors, necessarily. Maybe outside, like that, because I think of him as a considerate person. So, he was physically -- his physical stature was not so large. But he was sort of bigger than life. And that's interesting, because his son turned out to be, I think, six-foot or six-foot-two. So, it was probably from poor nutrition as a child, because I think he had rickets when he was very young and wasn't walking. So, that was part of, also, the thinking of -- when he was in Russia, that he was very -- his mind was very active and he had an imagination and he'd make up stories, 'cause he wasn't able to walk. He was sort of scooting around. My grandmother had also had rickets, but she was more bow-legged. But he might have been, but you wouldn't have known 'cause he never wore shorts. So, now that I'm thinking about it, yeah, that he -- but he wasn't 24:00tall, I know that. But he didn't seem any different from his peers, particularly. He didn't stand out. He had an accent. He had that Yiddish accent and they would talk in Yiddish. So, when I went to that school, I studied history and Yiddish and I really loved languages. So, I was trying to learn because they'd go back in and out of Yiddish and English when they were speaking together. So, I guess maybe not consciously, or if they didn't want somebody to, maybe a grandchild, to understand something. So, that motivated me to learn it more. So, let me see, what else? I think that that's it, yeah.

CW:What kind of clothes did he wear?

DBS:I think just like trousers and white -- I think he wore shirts with short sleeves a lot, like a button-down white shirt. Not really dressy, but not so casual, either. I don't think they even had dungarees back then, or jeans. Just, 25:00I would say, probably slacks. My grandmother was more into the clothes. Again, so much was the life of the mind, very much, and she took care of creature comforts of the home, the food. Just, again, if you think of the tradition in a more religious culture, I guess, Jewish, where the men are studying -- so, he was doing that but he was also earning a living and supporting a family. So, I would say he wasn't vain. I don't recall him looking in the mirror and checking how his hair looked or anything like that. He was just always on that mission to get this message across of Yiddishkayt and retain that, I would say, and then "The Rabbi's Bible," so he -- working on that to help -- to make Judaism 26:00available to the newer, the younger generation and make it relevant.

CW:Did you ever see photographs of him when he was younger? Do you remember?

DBS:I think only from when he was a teenager. And I think he did have that black hair then, right? Like a pretty good full head of hair. And I think he was probably kind of darker complected, maybe. Olive, darker olive, but not -- I don't recall anything from probably younger than a teen. And I think it was taken in the shtetl, one of the pictures, which is -- woah, before he came here.

CW:Did he ever talk about Russia, about the shtetl?

DBS:Well, he didn't really. Well, only in -- he wrote "My Jewish Roots" and "In the Thicket." But I don't recall him talking about it, particularly. Not to me.

CW:So, you've mentioned a couple of the books that he wrote. What is your sense of what were the types of things that he wrote?

DBS:Well, he also wrote the Chelm stories, "Wise" -- he had a sense of humor and he enjoyed that. So, "Wise Men of Chelm," "More Wise Men of Chelm," and then he wrote "The Wandering Beggar." Lately, I'm interested again to go back and read his work. I haven't looked at it in a long time.

CW:So, can you explain to someone who might not know those books what they're about, what they're like?

DBS:Well, they were folk stories, I'd say, that had been out there about this place in Poland -- Russia, Poland, Chelm and the Chelmites and the silliness and the nonsensical kinds of things they were doing. And then, there'd often, again, be kind of a lesson in each of these little stories. So, say that these maybe 28:00had been somewhat oral history and stories that had passed on, he put them on paper. There were others who did it, as well, I believe. But he had his own version of it with these neat little pictures, actually. And I actually have it in the other room. There are these books and then even the sketches, which I realized were probably what the people really looked like and dressed like over there. So, it's just some amusing stories, lighthearted, amusing, which, if you think about it, kind of counteract that serious side of him, too. So, he's wanting to enjoy life and have fun. Not everything should be just seriousness. And he did -- he enjoyed the creature comforts, as well. He loved my grandmother's cooking. He liked shmoozing with people. Wasn't just always the books, the books, the books, nose in the books kind of thing.

CW:And when would you have read those Chelm stories?

DBS:Probably about eleven or so, eleven years old, twelve years old. You could read them at any age, 'cause each time you read it, you're gonna get a chuckle, I would say. So, for children or even older people, they're amusing. They're entertaining, definitely.

CW:And some of those books have remained in print and --

DBS:Yeah.

CW:-- selling to this day. So, why do you think that is?

DBS:I guess because the -- probably the message, it's so human and timeless, which, again, which he wanted to always show: how much have we really changed? Yes, he wanted to modernize the Old Testament for nowadays. But if you look at any of these messages, how much have people changed? Technology keeps changing 30:00but as a human being, we -- they're the same concerns, the same drives, the same impulses, conflicts, and to show -- and to use that wisdom, that we're still human and still struggling with the same issues in so many ways. But people can really relate to it, at different ages.

CW:And then, you've mentioned the book "The Rabbi's Bible." So, can you explain what that is?

DBS:Well, he would take excerpts from the Bible and then he would have commentary on that to say this is the lesson that should be learned from this. This is the teaching from the Old Testament to be conveyed. And, again, how does this apply to modern life and what's going on. He would want people -- he'd want to maintain the world, save the world, I guess, in a sense and have it be a good 31:00place for future generations. So, pointing out how is that -- somebody might say, "Ah, that book's so old, what does that have to do with today?" But then, he would address that in this commentary.

CW:So, one of the other things that he did was being involved in the Sholem Aleichem schools. What do you know about that?

DBS:I don't know as much about that. I guess, again, that would -- except that it would be, say, the alternative where you're maintaining Yiddish and culture, music, that kind of thing. It's not just the religious but more of the cultural aspects of being Jewish and wanting to be sure that that could be perpetuated, as well. Eastern European and I guess the Ashkenazi Eastern European Jewish culture, basically.

CW:And what do you remember from when you went to the shule [secular Yiddish school]?

DBS:Well, I know when I started in Queens, Flushing, it was three days a week, which I really liked. So, we were really, I remember, going there and learning Yiddish and liking that, 'cause -- with that exposure three times a week. Then, we came out here to Long Island and it was once a week. So, again, it was learning history about cultural traditions and learning Yiddish again. But I was disappointed that it wasn't as much time. It was long --so, I think those three-times-a-week sessions in Queens were shorter and more frequent. So, this would be a Sunday and maybe two hours. But it was enjoyable, I felt. And, again, there's a social aspect that was always emphasized and important that you get to know your classmates and that kind of thing, too.

CW:So, one of the things that you mentioned was the relationship between your grandparents. I'm curious what the relationship between your mother and your zeyde was like?

DBS:Well, interestingly, I don't know as much about that. I think she kind of had a hard time with him sometimes because, again, in his -- well, first it turns out -- I hadn't realized this, but they weren't so eager for her to go to college or graduate school, which she did anyway. I had thought they were more modern than that, but apparently not. But then, they were agreeable to it. So, she probably somewhat resented that. And she had wanted to go away to college but they were, like, "Absolutely not. So, she went to Brooklyn College. And then, when she married my father, they lived with them for -- my parents lived with them for over a year. So, apparently, there were very intense arguments 34:00between my father and my grandfather because they had very different political points of view. (laughs) So, I don't know how good it was for the digestion after my grandmother probably had cooked and prepared all these meals. So, I think she somewhat resented that, I mean, he wasn't more taking my father under his wing and -- but my father was probably rather antagonistic I would suspect. My father had lost his father when he was three and probably was somewhat of a rebellious person towards -- could have left it alone. So, they finally left and got their own place, which was just as well, as a young couple. So, I don't know if she -- I think she always admired him and respected him. Maybe she thought he was such a presence sometimes. I imagine she would have thought that. Like, a grandchild is more likely to see all the good things than the child, probably. 35:00And so, I think totally respected him. Had that aggravation at the earlier part, in her marriage. But later, I would say -- it wasn't like there was animosity or anything. It was actually somewhat even joked about later, about those dinners. But she was in the middle. So, she couldn't take it, between her father and her husband. So, that's when it was like, it's time to go here. And he apparently later said that he had grown to really -- he was very fond of my father and I guess he had had some questions earlier on. But he figured later, "You're okay." Over the duration, he was, like, "He's an okay guy." He was a good father, he was a good husband. He did right by his daughter. There is another funny story, though. Apparently, he came in one day and they were -- my parents were necking 36:00(does air quotes) on the couch. And my grandfather kind of flipped out. My mother was very young, eighteen, nineteen. My father had just gotten back from the war, whatever. So, he went out and he said, "You're getting married" and went out and bought a wedding ring and that's basically -- and it's just like, "We're setting the date now. So, what is going on here? Okay, you doing this? You're carrying on, it's time for you to think about getting married." That's his oldest daughter, his first daughter, and let's make sure this turns out right. We don't want any problems here. So, I think that was pretty funny. He took charge. (laughs) He's a very take-charge person. Apparently, he had even had everything -- my grandfather, my zeyde, had even had everything written out for how he wanted his funeral to be, I think: who was going to say what, what was going to be said. So, you could say he was a rather managing person. Again, 37:00goes back to his strong beliefs and opinions that he held about how things should be done.

CW:So, what was his attitude towards America?

DBS:I think he just was so crazy about America. He was so happy to be here. He loved the United States. Really, joy. He felt very fortunate. He prospered, he thrived. And, again, he was not --- he didn't shelter himself just in this Jewish world. I just had another memory of staying with them and going over to Coney Island and going to the rides there. And here he was, how old would he have been? I was pretty little. I imagine he was I don't know -- fifties or so or sixties, and going on this steeplechase ride with him. He was the only one -- 38:00and it was a scary ride! I don't think they have it anymore. But onto this thing and he was a good sport. He was adventurous. Obviously, if you come --- if you go to another country, you have a sense of adventure, to some extent, a willingness to take that risk. So, again, he immersed himself. It wasn't just Yiddish. It was the English, as well, the American society, that he was so pleased that he -- it was such an opportunity in every way for him, as he saw it, I would say.

CW:And there's something about his birthday, too, right?

DBS:Yes. He, again, I guess they don't know exactly what their birthday was. He chose July 4th. So, my grandmother, interestingly, chose Christmas Day, December 25th, and he chose July 4th. That was his birthday. That's what we celebrated as his birthday. So, I think that's very telling.

CW:So, you mentioned his interest in passing things on and a sense of urgency to 39:00pass things on. What is your sense of what he was trying to pass on?

DBS:Well, again, I think to make Judaism palatable or acceptable to modern Jews. I think part of his sense of urgency is he had a heart attack when I was fourteen. He was here, actually, and staying with us. And he survived that. My parents were away and then he had this heart attack he had survived. And after that --

CW:What do you remember about that?

DBS:It was awful, that my grandmother came for me, and being on the phone. And I remember going and he was in bed and he was grey. His face looked grey and -- just I kept calling the ambulance to please come, please. Somebody has to get here. She was a wreck. Walking around, they were -- had stayed in my parents' 40:00bedroom -- and wringing her hands. She was hysterical. And basically, so, I just kept calling and then that -- they came and they took him and he recovered. But people didn't know as much about diet, so that Yiddish, that Jewish -- loads of chicken fat. He ate well. He died, he was seventy-five, I think. And he would talk about that. "I want to do this, get this work done, finish this work." So, I think the first heart attack -- and then he ultimate-- he died from another, you know, from a heart attack. And he died going to the library, apparently, with books in his hand, in the street. I mean, something happened where he collapsed. But th at, I suspect, contributed to the sense of urgency. When he was in Russia, I guess they had thought he was being somewhat groomed to be a rabbi. But then, for whatever reason, when he got here, I guess there was that struggle with becoming American, which meant not religious as a Jew so much, 41:00perhaps, and -- though, still, he had had that earlier education when he was in Russia, when he was younger. And that, obviously, had meant a lot to him. And he wanted to keep it going. So, he thought the messages were important for people. So, that's where he just -- when he wanted to complete that last version or that version he was -- the book or the section of "The Rabbi's Bible" he was working on was to be able to complete that. And, again, I think it was from the sense of urgency after that first heart attack.

CW:What's your understanding of this going back and forth in terms of his religiosity?

DBS:Yeah, I don't really know. I don't know if, again, it was an issue of assimilation, perhaps. Maybe his own personal struggles about God. As I recall, 42:00as he got older, he spoke more about God than I recall him talking about when he was younger, when it was more just cultural. More cultural, so to speak, which probably -- I'm thinking about, with World War II, how that would have impacted him, with the extermination of so many Jews -- would have probably contributed to his wanting to cultivate and perpetuate Jewishness in every way. And I don't know how much that would have affected his opinion or feelings about God, but make a lot of people start reflecting on God as they get older, more. So, that could be a combi-- various issues contributing to that. So, the Americanization, assimilation issue, all that together. The past, the present, 'cause they did have this big community here. But then, he would also -- I think he stayed in 43:00touch with some of the siblings that he had, but they were in Israel. He went to Israel. But he was far away from his family, too. So, whatever that sense of family that might have been that he was maybe yearning for at different times, his family, extended family or family of origin, as he got older.

CW:What was your family -- meaning that you grew up in, what was the approach to religion?

DBS:More secular, actually, because we also went to the Sholem Aleichem folkshul for education rather than Hebrew school, and apparently -- I don't know exactly why this was, but I don't know if my mother and my -- I guess the way it worked out between my parents and their backgrounds -- my father, I know, was bar 44:00mitzvahed, probably by the Orthodox that -- but in a simple way, and that had meant a lot to him. But they were also more into the cultural, secular -- the values aspect and more agnostic, I would say, as far as the religious aspect, but wanting us to have that identity. So, sending to -- going -- I think they tried different synagogues, but it maybe didn't always fit so well. So, it was more like music, Hebrew music, Yiddish music, the language, the foods, cultural kinds of things. And, again, with the message, I guess the basic message of how to be -- which, to me, is a mixture of secular and religious, to be a good, decent human being like that, to me, the way they transmitted that, that was kind of, We don't know about God either, but be the best person you can be and give back to the world. Don't just think about yourself and think about the 45:00larger context of your community kind of thing.

CW:Did you celebrate any of the holidays growing up?

DBS:Well, we did. We celebrated Hanukkah and Passover. When we would go to Brooklyn, we would have two seders. The first night would be with bubbie [grandmother] and zeyde Shloyme in Brooklyn. We'd get dressed up. I really looked forward to that. And then, the next night, we'd go to my father's side, which was a family circle, also dressed up, and see family members from the other side and have the seder. And even though it was lengthy, it wasn't -- I enjoyed it. I felt like it was very positive -- see my cousins and aunts and uncles and the food and the singing, I loved it. And a little bit, on Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, some Sukkot, not really. So, it was more, say, Hanukkah 46:00and Passover, particularly.

CW:What do you remember about the seder at your bubbie and zeyde's?

DBS:Well, I remember that everybody -- well, zeyde was in charge, (laughs) he was the leader, and basically that -- he would have other people read, though. We would go around the table and everybody would be included. And I remember uncle Ben, my aunt Yeta, my grandmother's sister's husband was very quiet. But he would participate. He would, but he was such a quiet man compared to my grandfather. I found that pretty interesting. And the afikomen, when they would hide the matzah and that we would look for that, and that was always fun. So, it was fun, and then telling the story at Passover every year. I liked it, even though, okay, some people, some kids maybe would say, "We told that story 47:00already. Every year, the same thing, again and again." But I liked that they did keep the rituals of the seder plate, "seder" means "order," and that you'd go through the story, the same music that you're singing together, I enjoyed that.

CW:Do you remember what languages that would have been in?

DBS:It was pretty much really English, for the most part, is how I recall it. I don't know if that's actually correct. And then, also, whatever you'd be reading from the Haggadah, so --

CW:So, you'd say Hebrew or Yiddish?

DBS:I think it was Hebrew. I don't remember exactly, really, though.

CW:It's fine. How much Yiddish -- how would you describe your level of Yiddish now?

DBS:Very rusty. I think I would understand some still. And I was always intrigued by the alphabet and learning that. I think if I exposed myself to it again I would be picking up on it. And I enjoyed the colloquialisms, the 48:00expressions, that kind of thing. So, the words that a lot of people who know Yiddish -- but that's still, I can follow that. But I think I might get the gist. I think it would be much harder to speak it, but understanding it, I might understand some of it.

CW:How much would your bubbie and zeyde have spoken Yiddish to you or around you?

DBS:Probably quite a bit. I'd say probably half the time. But they really would go in and out of Yiddish and English. They did speak Yiddish quite a bit, especially when they were emotional about something, 'cause that was their first language, I'm sure, so that's what they would revert to if they were feeling strongly about something. But I always thought that was neat to hear more than one -- I thought it was intriguing, interesting to hear this other language and how I liked the sounds of it, it's guttural. And then, again, it's very -- there 49:00are some sounds -- they're similar to English, some of the words, right? So, it's an interesting language.

CW:Would you ever speak Yiddish with -- back to them?

DBS:No, I don't think so. No, it wasn't good enough. No, they weren't expecting that from me, either. They really wanted it to be -- I can't say that, 'cause I think I had heard that maybe from my aunt. I'm not sure, but they didn't expect me to speak back to them in Yiddish. I don't even know if they realized I was understanding any of it from my Yiddish school, actually.

CW:Oh, one thing I wanted to ask is you mentioned the distance between Huntington and Brooklyn. How would you get there to visit them?

DBS:So, we would drive. Probably my father drove. But, again, it's interesting, 'cause with coming back and forth when they drove, my grandmother drove, and I 50:00remember being intrigued, as well, by how -- her relationship with her cars. She was very into her cars and she would call the cars "she," which I thought was very funny, which, then, again you learn that people refer to a boat that way. And I don't know, she always had Oldsmobiles, but she would have these big cars. I remember this big, white Oldsmobile. So, when they were coming here -- and I assume my father probably drove. I mean, there wasn't the traffic then that there is now, but that -- would have driven us in there. But it felt very fluid. It never seemed to be an issue as far as comings and goings back then. But when she would arrive here, she would come with -- oh, God, her cookies and blintzes, and she would have packed up these -- oh, it makes my mouth water just thinking about meat blintzes and other -- the cheese blintzes and then these butter cookies with cinnamon and sugar on top that she would bring. Honey cake, sponge cake she would have, yeah. Good stuff. (laughter)

CW:What would be an occasion -- you mentioned staying with them. When would that have happened?

DBS:I don't know if it was just that -- how it came about. As I recall it, it was just weekends at your bubbie and zeyde's. And I never felt like it was so far away. It just felt like it was just a delight to be able to go there and I guess be -- I was doted on. I felt special 'cause I would be by myself, pretty much, with them. And like I said, there was this shop with the pickles or the candies kind of thing in Brooklyn and that you would walk to things in Brooklyn. And I liked the city, 'cause in the first nine-and-a-half plus years, we lived in Queens, so actually -- so the drive would have been shorter for the first nine and three quarters years of my life, from Queens to Brooklyn, now that I'm 52:00speaking to you, thinking about that. So, that wouldn't have been such shlep, so to speak, and then just having -- I think it would just -- they were random times. I don't know if my parents were doing -- whatever they were doing. Or maybe they wanted one less kid around the house or something and I was eager to go, any time.

CW:Just to get some of the facts that you might know (laughs) do you know --

DBS:Don't count on the facts from me. Uh-oh!

CW:So, that's fine, they're --

DBS:Okay.

CW:-- we can check all this. We can look up a bunch of this --

DBS:Fact checking. (laughter)

CW:-- but I'm curious, you mentioned the Chelm stories --

DBS:Yeah.

CW:-- and "The Rabbi's Bible." Are there any other books that you remember?

DBS:Well, there was "The Wandering Beggar," "My Jewish Roots," "In the Thicket."

CW:So, what were those two books?

DBS:Think that those were his stories he was telling. It was his autobiography, "My Jewish Roots" and "In the Thicket." Actually have copies of them over there 53:00in the other room. The books, (laughs) yeah.

CW:And what was the --

DBS:Yeah?

CW:-- the impact for you, having this zeyde who was known as being a Yiddish writer and scholar?

DBS:I'd say it was very positive. Again, I enjoyed that respect that he -- and love it seemed that people had for him, that he was sort of a big shot or a celebrity. And it was nice to be the granddaughter of someone who was important --seemed important and who people liked and to be included in that circle of warmth -- love that was flowing back and forth. And I get some of that spilling over. "Oh, your zeyde, your grandfather, people really liked him." And just when 54:00he would go places and speak, I had the sense, I guess, from even when I was young that that was kind of a big deal, kind of a cool thing. And I didn't -- but I took it in stride, too. I don't think I felt like a show-off about it or would necessarily brag to anybody about it, but just maybe more kind of bask in the positivity of it and thinking that he was doing neat things and that he was, again, this character with different dimensions, like that man who was a retired dentist giving candy out to neighborhood children who would run up to him, "Dr. Simon, Dr. Simon!" And whereas he maybe embarrassed me at times by his effusiveness, others seemed to enjoy that about him. So, he was interesting. And so, it was warmth and it was stimulating, intellectually stimulating, and a lot 55:00of positive emotion there.

CW:When do you find yourself thinking about him?

DBS:Oh, gosh. Hmmm. So, I think about him a lot because I feel like his values that he transmitted, I think he was right and I think about him all the time, I just -- what messages he was trying to convey. It's hard (voice breaks) -- even gets me choked up right now. And I guess also 'cause I lost my mother, his daughter, two years ago, a little more than that. So, that sort of stirred that up again. And I remember I was at a friend's house when he died and being there, and sixteen, I was sixteen. And then, my mother -- and I guess they had just moved to Florida, my grandparents, to stay. And they were not going to be -- 56:00they had only gone there for the winters in the beginning. And I remember the friends I was with, I am still friends with them, they're still my best friends, and my mother saying, "You have to come home," and I -- being just sort of like, "Why?" I don't know, it was a Saturday aft-- whatever it was. And then, she didn't want to tell me on the phone. And then, finally, I guess I was being kind of stubborn or rebellious. And then, so she told me that he had died. And I have such a vivid memory of that and then coming home. And just (sighs) he was such a presence, so I was already not happy that they had moved to Florida, even though I was getting close to finishing my own high school and was expecting to go away to college and even though he would always talk about when he -- almost preparing me for when he would die and I remember saying to him, "Don't -- stop 57:00talking about that!" I didn't want to hear about it. But I guess on some level, psychologically, he did kind of prepare me for it.

CW:What would he say?

DBS:Just, again, with getting this work done and, "I'm not going to be here forever, so if you think I'm lecturing you or preachy it's 'cause I really want to get these messages across to you and that kind of thing while I have this time. I don't know how much more time I have here." And I think he was the first relative and first person close to me who had died. So, I think it was very foreign. I didn't want to hear it. I pushed it away. So, I guess now, when I think about him as a grandparent and who he was and that I was --- I feel fortunate to have had those experiences of feeling special by virtue of being 58:00his granddaughter and being around him and watching people relate to him and that -- they're very wonderful memories. And then, also, again, to live my own life and try and share that as best I can with, say, my kids, the values -- mostly the values. And mostly, I get positive feedback about that, or even the lessons -- say, at work and things like that that he was trying, again, to say, like back to that thing of these ten commandments that are so ancient. But look at them and, whoa, wow, yeah. That makes sense, even now.

CW:What would you want people to know about him?

DBS:Hmm. I think it'd be interesting to know of the kind of person he is --- he 59:00was and maybe to read what he had to say and enjoy that and that it's neat that there were people like that out there. And maybe as a role model, some people could pay attention to try and be a decent human being, make that the first thing you do every day, make the world a better place, as best you can, in all areas.

CW:And I think we got everything on your list. So, are there any other stories that have come up, any other memories as you're talking?

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

DBS:I guess, again, the paradox, kind of funny, of his (laughs) handing out 60:00candy, having been -- enjoying that about him never making an issue about sweets, even having been -- yeah, brush your teeth, but have some candy. And his adventurousness, like that Coney Island thing, just that's so -- and then even just going to the amusement park, being at their house for that weekend. That wasn't the Coney Island one, I don't think. I think there was something like a local fair in their neighborhood and just the delight of waking up there and my grandmother's oatmeal, being in the kitchen with her oatmeal, and then that we were going to this amusement park close by and we were going to have fun and just everything about it, being there. I remember being there one time when my 61:00cousin Billy -- Bill was born and talking to my aunt Mimi. And they were trying to figure out a name for him. I don't know if --- I remember it this way, that I mentioned Billy, and just remember being in the phone by his desk and that Billy was born and we were talking about what different possible names -- and, again, that family experience. "Oh, another baby! There's a baby being born!" And that was another joyful time. When they would visit Huntington, and coming out here and hanging out, that kind of thing, with him. Feeling just a very positive presence in my life. And I can't think of another particular story right now. I guess, again, going over with him, with the bat mitzvah study. I think possibly there was also an anniversary party for them that we had, for my grandparents, 62:00and playing music. Music was a big part from my father's side. And a lot of parties, and my mother was into that, too: entertaining and including people in that very extroverted sociability, that they really made an effort with that, to share that and positive experiences and enjoy good times with other people type of thing.

CW:And thinking back -- said some of this throughout the time you've been talking, but what are the big things that you've learned from him?

DBS:Well, I guess, first of all, he was serious, like everything isn't fun and games. He was a serious person. Apparently, if my mother would come home and say something about a gripe against a teacher, it'd be like, "Too bad, that's the 63:00teacher." So, it was sort of that old school kind of thing of tradition and try and -- don't rebel all the time. Yes, think about your own approach to things and try to work -- be creative and novel and do new things, but don't just cast off what was there so quickly, either. Be thoughtful in that regard about how you're going to conduct your life in that respect.

CW:Great. Well, thank you so much.

DBS:Oh, you're welcome.

[END OF INTERVIEW]