TINE KINDERMANN ORAL HISTORY

PAULINE KATZ: This is Pauline Katz, and today is December 30th, 2010. I'm here at KlezKamp in the Catskills with Tine Kindermann, and we are going to record an interview as part of the Yiddish Book Center's Wexler Oral History Project. Tine Kindermann, do I have your permission to record this interview?

TINE KINDERMANN: Yes.

PK:Thank you.

TK:You're welcome.

PK:To begin with, could you tell me briefly what you know about your family background?

TK:My (laughs) -- how much do you want to know? My family background -- my family has -- I am a third-generation; am I a third-generation or a 1:00second-generation? I think I'm a second-generation Berliner. Both of my parents were born in Berlin during the war. And my grandparents came from -- my grandmother came from the Polish border, from a small village; my grandfather was born in Wittenberge. And my mother's grandparents -- I'm not sure where they were born.

PK:And where did you grow up?

TK:West Berlin. West Germany.

PK:Can you describe the neighborhood, the --

TK:I grew up in a somewhat suburban part of Berlin -- Steglitz, Lichterfelde -- Lichterfelde being the smaller neighborhood. When I grew up there, it was -- when I was born, it was not a very desirable neighborhood. It was pretty and 2:00green and calm and quiet and everybody wanted to be downtown and, you know, party. And my parents moved there because they had very little money and because they actually liked the quiet. And so, it would have been a real suburb had there not been a wall around us. So. Later it became a neighborhood where mostly -- because of the -- because it's close to the university, a lot of academics moved there. But it was -- I would say -- when we moved there, it was kind of petit-bourgeois.

PK:And who were the people in your home growing up?

TK:My mother and my father, my younger brother. We have -- we had both sets of grandparents, but my mother's parents we were not in touch with. And my mother's 3:00half-brother, who we were also sometimes in touch with, sometimes not. And not much family aside from that. Small. Very small.

PK:Were your friends also in small families?

TK:Mostly, yes.

PK:Why was that?

TK:I don't know. At the time -- I think -- class, you know? My grandmother was, like, the thirteenth child on the farm or something like that. But, you know --

PK:What languages did they speak?

TK:German.

PK:And what was your education like?

TK:I went to elementary school in that part of Berlin, and then I went to high school in a slightly better-off part of Berlin. And then, I became -- I did a 4:00three-year set painting apprenticeship after that. So, I actually never went to college.

PK:And how did you get introduced to this world -- this klezmer world?

TK:I met my husband, Frank London, who's in the Klezmatics, in 1988 when the Klezmatics first played in Berlin, and I wandered backstage to find out if they had any records for sale -- not even CDs, but LPs.

PK:Why were you at the concert?

TK:It was part of a world music festival that went on for eight weeks or so and was outdoors and free. So, there you go. (laughs) It was free. That's why I was 5:00there. (laughs)

PK:Had you heard klezmer music before?

TK:I heard a little bit of klezmer music growing up, because my parents were actually collectors of world music or, you know, folk music, as it was called back then. So, I -- we had some Yiddish music, both song and instrumental. So, it was not unfamiliar to me.

PK:And had you sung these songs or played these songs? Or --

TK:I had not sung these songs. I was at the time in an Irish band -- in a jazz band.

PK:What were you playing?

TK:Fiddle and singing. And then, you know, obscure -- whatever -- flutes, guitars, whatever they needed. (laughs)

PK:So, you wandered back to find records. Did you find any?

TK:No, because they were at the time in the process of recording their first 6:00album. So, it didn't exist yet.

PK:So, how did you get to know the band?

TK:Like I said, I just went to the concert because it was outdoors (laughs) and free. And --

PK:When was the next time you saw them?

TK:The next time -- well, Frank came back to Berlin to master the record, and that's the next time I saw Frank. And then, we saw each other again -- the band I didn't see until more than a year later.

PK:So, did you get to know Frank after wandering backstage? Or --

TK:Yes.

PK:Oh, okay.

TK:Um-hm.

PK:(laughs) What was that like?

TK:It was cute. (laughs) Because it was actually my mother who wanted to know if there was a record. And so, I went backstage and he was sitting there and we started talking. And after a while, he said -- and this is -- you know, at this 7:00point, it's like one in the morning -- and he said that he had not had a chance to see any of Berlin because they had been in the recording studio all day. And then, he borrowed a bike and we biked around the city.

PK:And did you start dating from that day?

TK:Well, how do you date somebody who lives in another country, (laughs) you know? I guess, in retrospect. (laughs) Yeah, I guess.

PK:So, when did you leave Germany?

TK:I started coming to the States in 1990. And we were trying to figure out whether we could work it out together -- who would move where, what made the most sense. And so, I went back and forth for about three years. And then, in 8:00'94, I finally really moved.

PK:And when was your first KlezKamp?

TK:Huh. (pauses) I think it may have been '91 or something like that?

PK:Can you describe what it was like?

TK:Yes. It was in the -- God, in the sprawling old hotel that -- of which I can't remember their name --

PK:The Paramount.

TK:The what?

PK:The Paramount? Or --

TK:Yes, it was in the Paramount. So (sighs) -- I mean, at that point, I already knew a lot of the people involved with KlezKamp, because they were also personal friends. And -- but it was quite overwhelming. I mean, the noise, the amount of 9:00people, the amount of names you had to remember, and -- but most of all, I remember the hotel, I think. And I remember taking paper cutting and singing with Adrienne Cooper and meeting people. And I remember how cold it was in the hallways and, you know, how moldy some of those rooms smelled and (laughs) that you had to bring a humidifier, and that the experienced campers came with humidifiers. And -- yeah. No, I really liked the Paramount. (laughs)

PK:Was that your first time singing Yiddish songs or playing more klezmer music?

TK:Oh, I had actually done a Yiddish song as part of a theater production in 10:00Berlin. A friend of mine who was a writer and director had written a play about a girl who died in one of the camps but whose poetry had been left behind. And she had written a poem to the melody of a Gebirtig song. And my friend had asked me to find out what the original song was, so I found the original song. And then, she wanted me to record it for her, and I said I needed to check my Yiddish. So then, I went to Beyle Gottesman in the Bronx and -- you know, and had her check up on my Yiddish pronunciation. So, that was probably the first time I sang.

PK:Had you spoken Yiddish before or --

TK:No, not really.

PK:-- were you learning Yiddish?

TK:No. I'm -- it's like -- when I grew up, my grandparents had a book of Yiddish jokes that I read over and over again as a kid. So, it was -- again, just like 11:00with the music, there was a total familiarity that came from, you know, having been very little when I was first introduced to it. But I had never really -- and to this day, I have not studied Yiddish. That's something for -- I don't know, for when the kids are out of the house or something like that -- (laughs) and I don't have to supervise their homework anymore. (laughs)

PK:(laughs) Have you ever been a part of a klezmer band?

TK:No.

PK:Do you have any interest?

TK:Not at the moment.

PK:When you married Frank, did that change anything for you in terms of this 12:00whole world -- the Yiddish culture and klezmer world?

TK:I mean, when I -- (sighs) I married Frank -- when I moved in with Frank, when I lived with Frank?

PK:Yes, that world.

TK:Yes, of course. Of course. I mean, because also, since I didn't grow up in a Jewish family, you know, there was a whole new set of holidays. (laughs) So, no, we decided that, you know, if we had kids, that they would get a Jewish education. So --

PK:What went into that decision?

TK:A lot of discussion. Basically, because I come from a family where religion is considered something very personal that people decide for themselves. And my mother's grandparents, which was quite unusual for the time, made the decision to not have their kids baptized. They were -- A, they were sort of bohemians, 13:00and B, they were both involved with the resistance in Berlin. So, when during the war my grandmother went to her church to, you know, in a very -- you know, hidden way, ask for clothes for people in hiding and was turned down, she decided that she was done with the church. So -- and I was -- so I was very much against organized religion. Groups, no. (laughs)

PK:So, how did you decide to join this Jewish group?

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

TK:This was part of the children's, you know, cultural background -- that this was what they would learn. And you know, they also grew up with German folk songs. So --

PK:Is there anything else that you've passed on from their German heritage?

TK:I spoke German with them when they were babies and growing up, so they're 14:00both fluent. And they go back to Berlin on a regular basis and see their grandparents and friends they have over there -- cousins.

PK:Now what was the KlezKamp reaction to you when you first appeared on the scene?

TK:People were mostly friendly and welcoming. And every now and then, we would, you know, come across somebody who thought it was really interesting that I was German and not Jewish and involved with somebody who was Jewish and -- but not that much, actually. And I think that over the years, you know, I have -- I have become a fixture at KlezKamp because of the work I do for the youth theater workshop. And because if you show up for twenty years, (laughs) you're a fixture. (laughs)

PK:When did you start getting involved with the youth group -- with the youth workshop?

TK:Pretty early on. I'm trying to remember when exactly. I think when our son Louie was like -- was three years old, I was definitely already doing it -- maybe even the year before. So, that would have been about fifteen years ago. (whispers) Oh my God. (laughs)

PK:And what was it that drew you to the workshop?

TK:Oh, well, I have a background in theater. You know, I'm a set painter, I have designed sets, I've worked in theater for -- you know, for twenty-five years or so. And I really like what Jenny Romaine is doing -- her approach. And I was already at the time doing stuff that was kind of, you know, cheap and fast, like cardboard -- cardboard, cardboard, cardboard. And it worked really well for these productions that we'd bang out in three or four days.

PK:What do you think of the political message and the use of Yiddish?

TK:I think it's both wonderful. I mean, I think it's -- it's A, you know, a Yiddish tradition that not everybody knows about -- you know, the socialist or secular, Bundist, the non-religious Yiddish society that existed. And I think it's relevant to what's going on today. And we make it relevant. And so, I think it's a very hip thing for these young people to encounter, you know? And they seem to think so, too.

PK:Where did you learn about the Bundists and the leftists -- the linke?

TK:When I came to the States and I started hanging out at KlezKamp and related organizations and events.

PK:What related organizations and events?

TK:The Workmen's Circle, events that are put on by the Workmen's Circle. You 17:00know, some of Jenny Romaine's other projects. Stuff like that.

PK:Were those communities just as welcoming as the KlezKamp community?

TK:I would say yes. Overall, they have been. I think whatever -- you know, when you are a German, you -- at least a German of my generation, you grow up with a lot of guilt that can at times be quite vague, you know? I mean, it's like, I certainly grew up -- you know, when I was in another country, I would lower my voice, so as not to offend people with the sound of German. And stuff like that. And so, I think -- I don't think I've ever really encountered any hostility, but 18:00I think that I was sometimes expecting hostility. And that there was a lot that was internalized, that did not actually come from the outside.

PK:Such as?

TK:Well, the -- oh God. No, just -- just thinking, Am I making people uncomfortable? You know?

PK:Do you still --

TK:I mean, the weirdest experience that I ever had was in my dentist's office, when an old couple came towards me and very excitedly said, Are you German? We thought we detected a German accent. And I said, Yes. And they said, We both speak German. We were both in German camps. And I just -- I just didn't know what to do with this information, (laughs) you know? I don't remember what I said, but that was one of the most difficult moments (laughs) ever for me.

PK:Do you still find yourself monitoring yourself?

TK:Less and less.

PK:Can you tell me more about your arts work?

TK:Yes, absolutely. I'm a visual artist and a singer. And my visual art is mostly -- I don't do a lot of theater anymore. I mostly work in miniature. I create miniature environments or figurines. I have done -- I make dioramas and peephole installations that have a narrative. I work with found objects. I create these environments that have hidden little worlds inside that you can see through a peephole. And I did a series of works based on Grimms' fairy tales. And I -- they're very dark -- the original fairy tales are at times very dark, 20:00and I found myself drawn to specifically the dark content. And I'm also working -- these are all long-time projects, because I don't actually get to my studio that often. (laughs) I'm also working on a series of politicized Hummel figurines -- the Hummel figures being little kitschy figurines made of porcelain that became popular in the '30s, originated in Germany. They're collectibles; you can find them all over the world. And I grew up in a building that had a store on the ground floor that catered to the American soldiers in our neighborhood, and the Hummel figures were very popular souvenirs to bring home. And you know, so I saw them almost every day. And there was something that I 21:00found a little bit creepy about them, and so later -- maybe about ten years ago -- I looked into the history of the Hummel figures, and I realized that they were first introduced in the '30s. And I found it very cynical, you know, that there was this imagery of German children that was exported into the world. Because they weren't actually sold in Germany -- they were considered not heroic enough -- but they were exported like crazy. And I was like, Okay, so here's Germany selling this image of German culture while building concentration camps. And so, I decided to use my skills as a -- you know, as a sculptor of small sculptures to make a series of Hummel figures that would put back in what is not visible. So, they're very small, but quite provocative. So, you have a little 22:00Hitler Youth boy, or you have -- I mean, and also, the Hummel figures show children that imitate adult professions or behavior. So, I have, you know, little soldiers and policemen and little immigrants with the yellow star, and they all have that same, you know, innocent, surprised, cute look on their faces, but they do quite serious things.

PK:What do you -- who do you sell them to? Or what are you using them for?

TK:I haven't sold them. I haven't sold any. I have exhibited them, actually, in the context of an organization called the Jewish Art Salon. This is a group of 23:00artists that originated in New York. And it's mostly visual artists. It's across disciplines. It's across everything -- styles, genres. There are people who are religious, people who are not religious at all. It's a very open, very interested group of people that gets together a lot. And they have organized two or three exhibitions so far, and I have shown the Hummel figures in this context.

PK:Why do you think you're interested in doing work like that?

TK:Which aspect of the work? Because there's many aspects.

PK:The more -- commentary, or the political-ness to it.

TK:Well, when I saw the -- I mean, Germany has obviously dealt with its past in 24:00a way that was very excessive, you know? And I think that this was probably the first time in history that a country addressed something as big as this -- you know, as genocide. And you can't really deal with it, you know? You can only try. So, for me, this is like -- you know, it's like living with a wound that will never heal. And that's how it is. You know, I think the whole idea of healing is -- what's the word I'm looking for? I think it's wishful thinking, 25:00(sighs) you know? I think what most people in this world have to do is learn to live with wounds that will not go away -- that will maybe become less prominent, but I don't think they will go away. So, when I researched the Hummel figures, I had a catalog of the real Hummel company. And the language used in the catalog to describe the history of the figurines was such that it -- it described -- it didn't mention the Nazis. It didn't mention -- it mentioned the war. It said that the factory managed to do quite well through the war years and after. And I was like, Hey, wow! Cool! Good for you! Did you have, like, Polish slave laborers or -- (laughs) you know, how did you do that? Or -- you know, and the 26:00woman whose drawings these figurines are based upon, Berta Hummel, was a woman who became a nun. And so, they said she became a nun to get away from the turmoil of her time. And I was like, Oh, turmoil. That sounds like a weather condition, you know? So, it was like -- there was no owning up to anything. So, I thought, This is really interesting. So, you know, let me just rip off the Band-Aid. (laughs) And I guess that's one of the reasons for me -- is to just continue to say -- not, like, blatantly, This is still here. Maybe more like saying, This is another way of saying it.

PK:Now for you, did it mean anything to you that your family were resisters?

TK:That's a very interesting question. Because on one hand -- I mean, I really ultimately believe that we are who we are, and we have to do our work today. And you know, we're not -- I mean, there is stuff that gets handed down from families, without a doubt. I believe that my mother is a very unconventional woman, because her parents were -- had the courage to stand up and show that you didn't have to -- you didn't have to obey, you didn't have to be intimidated. You had to be careful, you know? You had to hide. But you didn't have to be intimidated. You had to be smart. And my father is a very fearful person, you know? And he came from a family that was -- you know, my other grandfather was a 28:00member of the Nazi party. And you know, and they were always careful about what they said -- and about -- and the funny thing is that -- I mean, I like to tell people, especially in the US, that I had one grandfather in the resistance and one in the Nazi party. And then, people think they understand. And then, I say, And the guy in the Nazi party was -- entered into the party as a member of a hobby painter group because they wanted to exhibit in the lobby of the building where they worked, and the guy who was in the resistance was a violent asshole who, like, almost killed my mother as a child, you know? Because he was physically abusive. So, it's -- that's another reason, I think, why I'm just -- I'm just interested in the things that are not so obvious, that are in the gray zone.

PK:What do you think your children's connections to Yiddish are?

TK:Huh. Well, they obviously grew up with Yiddish songs. And you know, they've both been through KinderNest and KlezKids, and they've learned a lot of stuff. They have a father who plays in a band that plays Yiddish songs. They understand a lot of Yiddish because they speak German. That's about it. They both haven't really expressed interest in learning the language or doing something with it.

PK:Have you or your husband guided them in any way towards one thing or the other, do you feel?

TK:I mean, neither of us speak Yiddish. So, no, it's more like -- it's always 30:00part of their life, so --

PK:(pauses) I have a question, I'm just phrasing it.

TK:Um-hm.

PK:(pauses) Has your music -- your approach to music -- changed since you entered the klezmer scene?

TK:Oh, that's a good question. I think one of the things -- I mean, I have a music program that I perform that is of German folk songs. Which again, is very interesting, because those folk songs have been -- or are partially still taboo 31:00in Germany, because they're reminiscent of music that was used as a means of propaganda by the Nazis. Like, every expression of folk art -- you know, as kind of the healthy, not overly intellectual peasant -- like, works the country -- works the land. And even though the songs that I sing really don't lend themselves to any sorts of propaganda because they are -- they're rather morbid -- you know, they go back to the time of the Thirty Year War, the plague, and -- but I've definitely approached these songs as a singer and recording artist with a similar aesthetic as many people, including my husband, who are here at 32:00KlezKamp. So, the question is, how can we make -- I mean, why do songs that are so old still have meaning for us? And how can we make the meaning relevant to people who live in the twenty-first century? How can we tell a good story with the tools we have today?

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

PK:So, what do your children think about your arts?

TK:Well, I think they've gotten used to the fact that it's all very dark. It used to disturb them more, especially our son. They're not very fond of the songs I sing. They kind of -- they're somewhat proud of me when I do stuff like -- like, when I did two shows with Iggy Pop, Anna was very proud of me, you 33:00know? But aside from that, I think -- I asked her if she thought that Frank and I were hopelessly old-fashioned, and she was like, "Oh, yeah."

PK:(laughs) What makes you old-fashioned?

TK:I think maybe the fact that we constantly ask her to cover her midriff. (laughs)

PK:And how old is she?

TK:She's thirteen. (laughs) It's very scary. (laughs)

PK:What kind of culture do you think that your children would identify with?

TK:Definitely Jewish. Jewish, German, American. Diverse. You know, they're both in public schools in New York City, have always been. It's very, very important to them, for various reasons. Anna is very outspoken about it. She says 34:00diversity is very important to her. They have very interesting, complex discussions about race among them on a very casual level. I mean, they're not afraid to call themselves or each other things that would make you cringe, you know? It's very open. And they're really -- I think they're really addressing important issues in a -- and they are aware of it. You know, issues of ethnicity, class, where you grew up, if your parents speak English or not, where do they come from, what is the culture. Yeah.

PK:Now, what made your home a Jewish home?

TK:Well, Frank was very clear about -- that that was very important to him. And 35:00so, we had to figure out what level of whatever we wanted to work with, we wanted to live with. And I didn't convert when we got married. And I'm actually in the process of converting now, which is in an interesting way -- that was a revelation I had at KlezKamp. I think not last year, but the year before -- when I was on the dance floor and I was, you know, in the middle of a dance with I don't know how many people and I saw all these people coming towards me and swirling around me, and I just felt very strongly that -- you know, that I felt very much at home in this world. And I said, Now it makes sense to me. Before, it didn't. Because before, it was not part of my identity. And I'm somebody who has a very, very strong need to -- for personal integrity, so I can't just take something on if I don't really feel that it's honest to do so. So -- and I felt 36:00like when I moved here, I made so many changes. I couldn't take on another major change. So, what we decided to do was -- in a certain way, I grew into Judaism the way our kids grew into Judaism, you know? It's -- you know, it's like, we would go and either have a seder or we would go to a seder and we would celebrate holidays, and then after a while, you come to associate spring with Passover and -- you know? And then, you're -- it's just like, Hm, it's that time of the year. I think I need to get some matzah. (laughs) And so -- and, you know, at times, we've kept kosher in a somewhat sloppy way. You know, we say, Okay, so I guess we're gonna be vegetarians. (laughs) And then, we didn't. And 37:00then -- you know, but certain things have sort of established themselves around the house. And we light candles, but we don't keep Shabbos. And -- you know.

PK:Your own brand of Judaism.

TK:Exactly. But definitely for the kids, you know, there's no doubt that -- that's just what they are.

PK:Can you tell me about your bas mitzvah?

TK:My own? Well, that would still be coming up.

PK:Oh, okay.

TK:Yeah. (laughs)

PK:I thought it said 2010.

TK:Ah, no.

PK:Can you tell me about your preparations for your bas mitzvah?

TK:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm having so much fun. Because I am taking an adult -- it was a bar and bat mitzvah class until we lost all the guys -- (laughs) you know, for various reasons. I mean, so now, it's a really interesting group of women --

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

TK:And a lot of those women are older and just didn't have a bat mitzvah when 38:00they were young, you know? So, it's a really interesting group of kind of feisty women who -- and we do Torah study and I learn to read Hebrew and I really enjoy it.

PK:Do you know what your parshah [weekly Torah portion] is gonna be?

TK:I think we're having a group bat mitzvah. Yeah. And I think it's some time in -- you know, that would be really funny if I had the same parshah as my daughter. I hope not. It was a really boring parshah. (laughs)

PK:Well, I guess we better wrap this up. (laughs)

TK:Okay. (laughs)

PK:Is there anything else that you wanted to talk about?

TK:No, I think just that -- yeah, I mean, what I think is really amazing for me as an experience of having been to KlezKamp for such a long time is that -- I 39:00mean, especially when it comes to the musicians -- that I feel like the premise of KlezKamp, the idea behind KlezKamp, has really, really come to fruition. Which is amazing, you know? Because all of a sudden -- not all of a sudden -- over the years, people that I met as children are professional musicians who support themselves through music that is, in various ways, informed by klezmer. That they have, you know, taken and moved into the twenty-first century, and that klezmer is -- has become a reference, you know? That you can read -- Madonna has made a new album with elements of hip-hop, rap, and klezmer. It's like, Oh! You know? I forgot who said it, but that's coming a long way from 40:00David Letterman going, "Klez-mer." (stutters intentionally) "Kle-- kle-- kle-- klezmer." You know? I think that's what I wanted to say.

PK:One last question, then.

TK:Okay.

PK:What's your advice to people coming into this world with absolutely no background -- the same way you did -- or very little?

TK:I think the best advice I could give to anybody would be to not have any expectations, and just be totally open to this -- to the wild, wild world of klezmer. (laughs)

PK:A dank [Thank you].

TK:Um-hm.

[END OF INTERVIEW]